German Blue Ram pair and Apistogramma together?

[abw0004]

Hello all,
I have a 25 gallon long (Fluval Accent) aquarium that has been running since January 2014. I currently have these fish:

-1 Clown Pleco
-1 Guppy
-4 Neon Tetras
-2 Glowlight Tetras
-1 Dwarf Gourami
-6 Nerite Snails

Up until last week, I have a breeding pair of German Blue Rams and absolutely LOVED them. I plan on getting another pair. I was also doing research and came across the Apistogramma family. My question is, would German Blue Rams and a pair of Apistogramma trifasciata or Apistogramma borelli get along?

I have a picture of my aquarium on my profile (a little outdated) for reference. But the aquarium is planted, and has driftwood on one side. I have a flat stone one one end, and the hollow tree root on the other side with sand inside. The water stays roughly at 80 degrees and I do 30-40% water changes every week. The aquarium calculater put my tank at 107% stocked if I did both pairs.

Thoughts?

 

[Gillie]

There are 2 reasons you shouldn't /couldn't put them together. 1 the tanks footprint is not large enough, the rams would dominant and kill either of those species in a tank that small. 2 neither borellii or trifasciata handle temps about 77-78 degrees very well, it shortens their lifespans by quite a bit.


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[abw0004]

So a 3 ft long tank wouldn't be enough space? And the apisto's do or don't do 80 degrees?

 

[Gillie]

I was thinking of another tank, the accent has a 30x12 footprint which would still give me pause, especially with pairs. Neither borellii or trifasciata would last long with the rams due to their very passive attitudes(even during brood care) and the ram's need for temps in the 80s.


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[doctordamen]

I have two gbrs(m/f) with four double full red cockatoo apistos (1m/3f) in a 55G, so it's 4' long. My rams definitely dominate half of the tank, and won't let them over to their side but there are a lot of caves for the apistos to go into that the Rams don't fit. The Rams can go on to the apistos side with no problems.
My apistos temp range is from 72-86f. I keep my tank at 80-81 and everyone is happy.


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[Gillie]

I have two gbrs(m/f) with four double full red cockatoo apistos (1m/3f) in a 55G, so it's 4' long. My rams definitely dominate half of the tank, and won't let them over to their side but there are a lot of caves for the apistos to go into that the Rams don't fit. The Rams can go on to the apistos side with no problems.
My apistos temp range is from 72-86f. I keep my tank at 80-81 and everyone is happy.


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That temp is too high even for cacatuoides. The most compatible apistos for rams are brevis, iniridae, guttata, macmasteri, ortmani and viejita, they are found along side rams in the wild and tank strains still retain their tolerance for those temps.

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[doctordamen]

That temp is too high even for cacatuoides. The most compatible apistos for rams are brevis, iniridae, guttata, macmasteri, ortmani and viejita, they are found along side rams in the wild and tank strains still retain their tolerance for those temps.

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http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=830+889+1664&pcatid=1664
Cockatoos temp is from 72-86f...



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[doctordamen]

http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Apistogramma_cacatuoides.php
This site says up to 80f


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[michellev512]

Lots of sights say lots of things...

I'm sure gillie knows what he's talking about...



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[Gillie]

I don't mean to sound rude, but live aquaria is a joke, I'm not sure why everyone relies on it for info when there are so many better sources of info. As far as dwarfcichlid.com saying up to 80f, all I can think of is that the temp was recorded in a pool that wasn't under the rainforest canopy like their typical habitat and used as the top end of their range. Rams require those temps because it is in their genetics as they come from the Los Llanos of Colombia and Venezuela, where there is little to no tree cover to cool the water and some ponds have been recorded near 100f, but it doesn't mean we should keep them at that temp, so the best thing to do is keep the fish at a temp they are comfortable with.

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[michellev512]

What's a good temp for macmasteri?

I keep them at 77-78, is that too high?

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[Gillie]

What's a good temp for macmasteri?

I keep them at 77-78, is that too high?

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Although they tolerate temps in the 80s, apistos have been found to live longer in cooler temps so you're good I keep my apistos between 76-78.

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[doctordamen]

I don't mean to sound rude, but live aquaria is a joke, I'm not sure why everyone relies on it for info when there are so many better sources of info. As far as dwarfcichlid.com saying up to 80f, all I can think of is that the temp was recorded in a pool that wasn't under the rainforest canopy like their typical habitat and used as the top end of their range. Rams require those temps because it is in their genetics as they come from the Los Llanos of Colombia and Venezuela, where there is little to no tree cover to cool the water and some ponds have been recorded near 100f, but it doesn't mean we should keep them at that temp, so the best thing to do is keep the fish at a temp they are comfortable with.

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I have taken your advice and also done much more reading into the temperature range for cockatoos. I've come to the conclusion that they are happy at 80f.
The 86f is definitely the high end that their pools reach for a few weeks in the summer. Definitely not to be maintain year round.
76-78f seems like the low end. One breeders article on them stating they don't show their colours as well in temps below 78f. So for cockatoos anyways, IMO 78-80f is perfect. I'm sure other apistos might be a bit different, I was researching cockatoos specifically.
Good Luck!


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[Gillie]

I have taken your advice and also done much more reading into the temperature range for cockatoos. I've come to the conclusion that they are happy at 80f.
The 86f is definitely the high end that their pools reach for a few weeks in the summer. Definitely not to be maintain year round.
76-78f seems like the low end. One breeders article on them stating they don't show their colours as well in temps below 78f. So for cockatoos anyways, IMO 78-80f is perfect. I'm sure other apistos might be a bit different, I was researching cockatoos specifically.
Good Luck!


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If you were to talk to Mike Wise, who is the country's authority on apistogramma, would tell you that 80 is too high. Apistogramma live much longer lives and are generally healthier all around when kept in the lower ends of their temp range.

There's no need to wish me luck, I've been collecting, keeping and breeding apistogramma for nearly 30 years now. It sounds like you are just beginning so I should be wishing you luck.

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[doctordamen]

If you were to talk to Mike Wise, who is the country's authority on apistogramma, would tell you that 80 is too high. Apistogramma live much longer lives and are generally healthier all around when kept in the lower ends of their temp range.

There's no need to wish me luck, I've been collecting, keeping and breeding apistogramma for nearly 30 years now. It sounds like you are just beginning so I should be wishing you luck.

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Lol thanks.. I was wishin the op luck on their tank but anyways. Sounds like you know your stuff...


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[Gillie]

I found this in a thread concerning the same topic on the apistogramma forum.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is the difference in temperature requirements for both species.
"M.ramirezi prefers much warmer temps than A.cacatuoides.
Rams should be kept at around 80 Deg or higher. A.cacatuoides prefer temps around 76 Deg. Actually this is the temperature range for most Apistogramma species. Higher temps will reduce the live acceptancy of your A.cacatuoides because they will accelerate it's metabolism."

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[abw0004]

So I will assume they would not be comparable with my tank as small as it is? are there any other fish that would do well with higher temps in the apisto's? I just love how the Rams look so I want those for sure, but the appistos look good too

 

[Gillie]

So I will assume they would not be comparable with my tank as small as it is? are there any other fish that would do well with higher temps in the apisto's? I just love how the Rams look so I want those for sure, but the appistos look good too

I'm looking at your current stock and unless you are willing to change out a few fish, you are better off going with apistos.

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