Goldfish Mating Question

[Tank120]

Gosh, I haven't been on in so long.

My calico exhibited mating behavior with my Redcap Oranda. Chased her for a full day. Now I know the sex of those two.

All of the goldfish in my tank, except my white oranda with the corneal bubbles are mature.

What I was wondering is, can I assume that the others are all female because they showed no interest?



Sent from my HTC first using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[jlk]

Gosh, I haven't been on in so long.

My calico exhibited mating behavior with my Redcap Oranda. Chased her for a full day. Now I know the sex of those two.

All of the goldfish in my tank, except my white oranda with the corneal bubbles are mature.

What I was wondering is, can I assume that the others are all female because they showed no interest?

Sent from my HTC first using Aquarium Advice mobile app

Does the calico that did the chasing have breeding tubercles? Did the oranda release eggs? If not, chasing does not necessarily indicate he is male and the oranda is female. They both could be males. They both could be females (though not as likely). Or they may not necessarily be either (though not as likely). Without clear IDs on gender, chasing does not immediately indicate male and female.

You can not assume anything in respect to the rest of your fish either. Although you may believe they are 'mature', unless they are displaying clear signs to their gender (males are the easier sex to ID), they are not yet mature or they may fit into the androgynous area of goldfish gender. More likely, they are simply not mature yet. Please ask any questions!!

 

[Tank120]

Not sure

It is impossible to tell if the Calico Telescopes or Ryunkin are male. They are so heavily mottled that it is impossible to discern whether breeding tubercles are present. The Red Cap Oranda is quite large but the very, very small development of what I think to be wen would probably put her under two and I do not know at what age the begin having an interest in breeding. Actually, I have questioned for some time whether the Red Cap was mismarked. She does indeed have Red on her head but it extends down onto her back. The body structure doesn't seem to be all what is should be. I really do not think that she is an Oranda. Her redeeming qualities are health, love of the other fishie's company and the most beautiful tail fins with a yellowish tint.

I thought they were mating because (excuse my language) he had his nose stuck up her butt for hours. I watched them for awhile and found that he was in no way harming her. Checking the tank later, I actually never saw eggs or a sperm cloud. I have no idea exactly how old any of them are. Most of them are so big now it is hard to figure age. I know that my large Lionhead should be around two, because his wen is starting to grow and we have had him almost two years. The Telescopes are both huge, especially the one with the black stripes through his tail ( he is the one that was chasing Dash).

Bubbles ( the fish with GBD and corneal bubbles ) was placed in the large tank after two months. I could not stand to see her in that quarantine container with nothing to interact with. I though I would give her a try in the big tank and if she did well, to leave her there. It only took her a week to adjust. She is now swimming with all of the fast fish to get her breakfast and veggies at lunch. One cornea is slightly Opaque and I am sure distorts her vision a bit. The other cornea is perfectly clear. I also do not believe she is an Oranda and mislabeled at the LFS. She has the most beautiful finnage I have ever seen. She flows through the water like a cloud in the sky. We definitely know she is a juvenile because she was just purchased, I believe in March. LFS tend to only carry juvenile fish.

Perhaps you can help me identify their type? I would be greatful. After all, my Ryunkin was supposedly a Lionhead and definitely is a fine looking Ryunkin.

Added, are pictures of my kids. I also added a picture of my plant tank or backup plant tank on the next post.

I experiment with what the goldfish are interested in. I keep backups of everything. So far, they want to eat the roots off of my frog bit and they ate all of my hornwort except for what I have in the plant tank. So I am letting them reproduce and will try again when I have much more. I have some duckweed but not enough to keep them from totally annihilating it. Believe it or not, they really don't bother the Wisteria. I have discovered that if I hide my stems very close to a piece of driftwood they won't uproot it. They are okay with the Anubius, and Corkscrew Vallisneria. I have another tender leaved stalk plant but don't know the name. I found that if you cut the bottom out of one of the
small plant baskets that shipper use, that they also cannot get to the roots.

For my birthday my hubby let me buy true Siamese Algae Eaters. I didn't want to go to the LFS and do an in-depth investigation of each fish to determine if it had the right pattern or not and I was sure they would be small and a bit harder to identify. I was given a recommendation for a site in Hawaii that stocked only true Siamese Algae Eaters. True to their word, when I received them, they were in fact obviously the authentic Siamese. I love them! They are so entertaining. I have two anubius. One is the mother plant and is medium sized. The other is a start of that rhizome. They tend to get black algae on the leaves that even the Ramshorn won't touch. I put one in the plant tank and to get it cleaned and then trade again. I also give the Siamese some regular algae wafers. They need a variety once in awhile.

I have six fish in a 125 gallon tank. My daughter is bringing back my 55 gallon so I can move the two smaller fish. I took out half of the ship and added more driftwood to give them more room.

 

[Tank120]

Siamese Algae Eaters

 

[jlk]

Is the telescope pictured the one that was showing 'interest' in the others?

Everyone looks healthy and beautiful!!! Great job! The finnage on the white ryukin is quite stunning!

Your red cap may not be a typical oranda or she may be an oranda cross. It looks like she is just starting some wen growth but she has a more streamline build and greater tucking through her peduncle than an average oranda. It's not unusual to see quite a bit of variety among a single breed either. I have moors that are built like ryukins, others like comets and bunch that run the spectrum in between with every possible variant of tail shape.

I am likely missing half of your queries but I can not go back to read through everything from my cell, so please bare with me (trying to do this from memory)! Just ask again!

 

[Tank120]

Hi JLK,

Yes the pictured telescope is the one that was chasing the Red Cap Oranda very closely.
It lasted 24 hours and he did not do so much as tear one of her fins. He showed no interest in any other fish in the tank.

I concur, I have questioned many times whether the Red Cap Oranda, Dash, is truly an Ornanda. The body shape is just not quite right. Finnage appears different in some ways. Until the very slight development of wen within the last few weeks, I was almost certain she was not an Oranda at all. What you said makes great sense. I do love her large yellow tinted finnage though.

I am unsure of Bubbles also. I do know that she is a juvenile but even other younger Orandas that I have purchased had some wen at an early age. Her body shape isn't bad but where wen should be developing, there is just a scaleless, smooth and yellowish tinted area.

I greatly value your opinion on the type that either might be. Although, I guess you have already told me your thoughts on Dash.

I lucked out with my mislabeled Lionhead who turned out to be a beautiful Ryunkin. He is huge, fat and gorgeous.

My little one-eyed Lionhead, Midge, is apparently going to stay undersized. He eats well. I always stand and watch at feeding time to make sure he and Bubbles are getting their share. Believe it or not, they are aggressive eaters. They are right there in with the large fish getting their share. Even veggies off of the clips.

My little Midge is constantly getting himself into trouble. I am lucky in that I can drain my tank water out of the French doors and into a drain on the patio (save some for cleaning the filter or watering my plants ). I cleaned the tank a couple of months ago and then left to answer a phone call. When I came back, Midge had himself wedged at the top of the suction tube. I immediately released the pressure and gently shook him out into the water. He had a few missing scales and had significantly messed up his swim bladder. I moved him into quarantine and added just enough water to keep him upright. He kept his appetite and so I hand fed him peas. Each day at water change, I would increase the water level until he floated to his side and then remove until he was upright again. For three days the water was just over his back. From the fourth on, I was able to raise the level high enough to run a filter. His tail looked as if it was shedding slime coat from being above the water. The edge was whitish with a slimy string hanging from it. So, I started a mild saltwater bath and within a week he was perfectly health. We were able to slowly bring down the salt and then achieve total freshwater and he went home.

A few weeks later the little stinker got stuck behind the airline of a pond stone ( I use pond stones because they weight themselves to the bottom, only have to be cleaned with vinegar and cause wonderful surface agitation. I have six). When I helped him out he had once again messed up his swim bladder. He went back to quarantine. This time we only had to use the water level method and peas for a few days. He went back to his big tank and is quite a happy guy. I just never know what kind of trouble he is going to get into next. He has also gotten stuck in the "V" of a piece of driftwood. No problems that time. I guess he is just too curious. I love my Midge.

I check pH, nitrates and co2 every day. Although, I can often tell how CO2 is doing by the pH. It is a DIY system on both tanks so I never have to worry about too much CO2. I am usually able to maintain the minimal normal. I am more attentive of the pH not fluctuating too erratically. I do not want to cause an unstable environment that will stress my fish.

I check all parameters once a week and change water accordingly, trying very hard not to change more than necessary so that I can maintain some CO2. I will change water any day that the nitrates have a spike around 10.

Breakfast is presoaked Full Life Spectrum, Coralife and spirulina pellets. Evening meal is broccoli, spinach, green beans, peas, carrots or cucumber. The receive mandarin orange or banana once a week. I save messy foods like daphnia, baby brine shrimp, Mysis and watercress for a few hours before a tank cleaning.

 

[jlk]

My apologies here, but which fish is Bubbles? Or is she not pictured yet? If you only purchased her in March, give her some time to develop. All of your fish are developing beautifully from great care so keep up the good work!!!

I will fill you in on my clue on your telescope (besides behavior) but you will need to take a closer look in person. In your pic, his pectoral fins are in motion but it appears there are a few breeding stars (bubbles) on the leading ray of his pectoral fin. Keep in mind, tubercles/stars can come and go and may not be present 24/7 year round. Some of my males have them evident all the time but they have no interest in breeding. Ever (ugh). Others, never display anything ever yet they are my most persistent and prolific breeders. Fish are strange...

 

[Tank120]

Yes, my Bubbles is the white beauty in the picture.

I will check Pappy's pectoral fins as you suggested and let you know if I find anything.

It would be much easier if you would move to town so I could have you inspect them

Sent from my HTC first using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[jlk]

Yes, my Bubbles is the white beauty in the picture.

I will check Pappy's pectoral fins as you suggested and let you know if I find anything.

It would be much easier if you would move to town so I could have you inspect them

Sent from my HTC first using Aquarium Advice mobile app

Lol!!!

So, Bubbles is the white ryukin? He (or she) looks to be the picture of health and those stunning fins and tail are only going to become longer and more lovely with time! As to whether he is a he or a she, I honestly can not tell from the pic. Ryukins with their deep, round physique are difficult to sex even as adults. Let's see how he or she develops!

 

[Tank120]

Astounded!

JLK, after what you told me to look for, I searched for pictures so I would know exactly what goldfish tubercles look like. I found two videos on You Tube that showed excellent close-ups.

Dash-Red Cap Oranda-Picture #1-Female-I would say definitely since Pappy the Telescope was trying to mate with her.

Pappy-Telescope-Picture #2 above-Definitely male

Ethel-Telescope-Not pictured-Female or undetermined.

Midge-My little one-eyed Lionhead-Not pictured-Male

Splash-Lionhead-Not pictured-Male

Fred-Calico Ryunkin-Picture #3-Female or undetermined

Bubbles-Oranda-Picture #4-Male

Just to clarify, in your last post you inferred that Bubbles might be a Ryunkin, when I thought she was an Oranda-Picture #4. Also, I need to clarify that Fred-Picture #3-is indeed a Ryunkin. Just a little confused now. I would be more than happy to post more pictures of different views of the fish.

You have already told me that Dash-Red Cap Oranda-Picture #1-is definitely an Oranda with just a little bit of difference in body type and late development of wen.

I appreciate your help! I know it really does not matter in the long-run but I often log my fishs' appearance and health. It would be great to know for certain what type they are.

I think I know what may have initiated the mating and/or development of tubercles. During an extremely warm week, our central air was down. I was doing every thing I could to keep the temp under 81 degrees. The next week was cooler and we also go the central air fixed, so the temp dropped to 75??

 

[jlk]

I am afraid I am now quite confused! Pic #1 is the oranda (possible oranda cross). Pic #2 is the telescope. Pic #3 (dorsaless calico) is either lionhead or a ranchu (or a cross). Pic #4 (white) is the stunning ryukin. I see someone with a chubby face and wen in the background of one of the pictures, too! Right fish?

Yep, big temperature swings and wcs can induce breeding behaviors similar to natural environments. You will see this in the spring in a pond when temps start to warm, after a big rainfall in the summer (water temps drop) and in the fall when there are warm days and cool nights. Quite a few breeders swear a full moon will also induce breeding! I am not completely convinced of this but there may be something to it.

 

[Tank120]

Thank you so much! Now I understand. I had seen pictures of Ryunkins with very short tails. I didn't know there were Ryunkins with, long gorgeous finnage. After studying the internet, I found a picture that looked exactly like him. Part of my confusion was that he was also labeled as an Oranda at the LFS. I was extremely surprised to find breeding tubercles on him. He was the last purchased and not as big as the others.

Yes, the extra guy in the picture is my little one-eyed Lionhead, Midge. He is the one that is always getting into mischief. He is much smaller than his brother but looks like he will have a good wen.

I just do not know how extremely well you are able to differentiate by just body shape! I knew the Ranchu had to be pure or mixed because there is no dorsal fin.

It's wonderful to now know what everyone is.

 

[Tank120]

I apologize! I did know that Fred (to be renamed since I think she is female) was a Ranchu or mix. I got the names of the two types mixed up. Thank you JLK

 

[Tank120]

Of course you were right again I was double checking fish this morning at feeding time. I wanted to make sure that there were indeed tubercles on all of those I identified as male. My Ranchu got very close to the glass to look me in the eye and there it was, the starting of a wen. It is hard to see from further away since he is calico. So Fred, who is most likely female and to be name Nanna, is definitely a Lionchu. Thanks again!

Sent from my HTC first using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[pip walters]

Even if tubercles.are not obvious, you.can feel them if you hold the fish in a wet net and run a finger lightly ove the operula (gill cover). Mature fish can be sexed relatively easily by viewing the genital papillae. A little difficult to describe, though, without one of each sex to demonstrate. If I get chance, I will try and photograph one of each at work.

You mentioned age of maturity.... this can be dependent on growth rate rather than age. I have bred from 6 inch goldfish of 9 months old. I have expelled eggs and milt from goldfish as small as 4 inches. These fish were intensively raised indoors at around 23 C.