Honey Gourami erratic swimming

[Fishymishy]

She goes up, gulps air, goes down and seems to be peaceful and doesn’t move much unless I turn the light on. Most of the time she is at the bottom of the tub (it’s very shallow).

 

[Andy Sager]

Update. Chuna is alive and I haven’t observed any darting or sinking. She got another soak in epsom salt and is still in medicated water post soak - I changed water and dosed same dose of paracleanse and expel p to keep ammonia at bay (it’s zero). I had to do this since the filter I am using in the hospital tank is not cycles.

I believe I saw poop (little light brown tiny string) but no worms. She is not eating (I think). It’s been just slightly over 24 hours. Should I continue with the treatment (expel p and paracleanse)? Or should I continue with paracleanse?

Follow the directions on the packages. Dewormers usually are a single dose but some are multiples. I have not personally used either of these products so I would follow the directions.
I would not worry about feeding her at this point. Wait 24 hours after the last worm treatment then try to feed something easy to digest to help push out any intestinal worms or poo.

 

[Fishymishy]

Update for those following this thread. Chuna is alive. One moment she is floating upside down and doing acrobatics or lying at the bottom on her side and another she is lying on her side at the bottom and then she is up and gulps at a surface like a normal honey. This floating happens after darting and hitting walks of the tank.

Epsom salt bath daily. No long poops. I don’t see any effects. She is fasting (last time she ate was 2 days ago) and I decided to fast her again. I didn’t see worms and at this point I am treating this as bacterial since I didn’t see an effect from anti parasitic drugs. I couldn’t find info on mixing antibiotics so I doses kamanycin and maracyn to treat this as dropsy or columnaris at the same time. I think she has palesness and silverfish tone to her gills and top of head. But I also think her eyes may be bulging? I think the fish is dying so I am going nuclear. If she doesn’t get any better in 5 days I am out of options. ��

 

[Andy Sager]

Update for those following this thread. Chuna is alive. One moment she is floating upside down and doing acrobatics or lying at the bottom on her side and another she is lying on her side at the bottom and then she is up and gulps at a surface like a normal honey. This floating happens after darting and hitting walks of the tank.

Epsom salt bath daily. No long poops. I don’t see any effects. She is fasting (last time she ate was 2 days ago) and I decided to fast her again. I didn’t see worms and at this point I am treating this as bacterial since I didn’t see an effect from anti parasitic drugs. I couldn’t find info on mixing antibiotics so I doses kamanycin and maracyn to treat this as dropsy or columnaris at the same time. I think she has palesness and silverfish tone to her gills and top of head. But I also think her eyes may be bulging? I think the fish is dying so I am going nuclear. If she doesn’t get any better in 5 days I am out of options. ��

The pale colored gills is a bad sign. There are a couple of possibilities but truthfully, neither has a good outcome. For what it's worth, Kanamycin combined with Nitrofurazone is a better full spectrum combination but in this case, I'd see if the combo you are using does anything. If not, you should consider euthanizing the fish.

 

[Fishymishy]

Should I panic and assume fish TB? I read that haphazard swimming could be symptom of mycobacteria (a neurological presentation). What else could it be? I am getting scared now for myself and my dogs and cats.

 

[Colin_T]

Haphazard swimming is normally caused by an infection in the brain (virus, bacteria or protozoan), a stroke or brain injury. Bacterial and protozoan infections are the more common cause and the fish usually dies regardless of treatment because once they start having problems swimming, brain damage has already occurred.


A video of the fish might offer more info.


TB infections in the brain are rare but do sometimes occur, but normally they affect the internal organs.

 

[Andy Sager]

Should I panic and assume fish TB? I read that haphazard swimming could be symptom of mycobacteria (a neurological presentation). What else could it be? I am getting scared now for myself and my dogs and cats.

As Colin stated, it's unlikely to be fish TB but possibly Branchiomyces sanguins or Branchiomyces demigrans fungi. Another possibility is a Streptococcus infection. With the fungi, it's usually too late when it's discovered and there are no known 100% positive cures and the fish dies from hypoxia due to the destroyed gills which supply oxygen to the fish. With the Streptococcus infection, there is some evidence that erythromycin is effective. Marycin contains erythromycin. While most internal bacterial diseases are gram negative which is why Kanamycin works, Strep is a gram + bacteria so might not be effected by the Kanamycin but Kanamycin does treat some gram + bacteria which is why your current treatment is about the only treatment I would have recommended. This is why if these don't work, there's really nothing else to try.

On a side note: High stocking densities, poor water conditions, and high temperatures are the most favorable conditions for streptococcal outbreaks. You need to make sure these conditions didn't occur or are not currently in your tank.

 

[Fishymishy]

Unfortunately my fish just passed. She was on her side at the bottom. Her one eye was protruding more than the other and as I prepared epsom bath she died. What could this be based on photos?


I am going to try to have necropsy done if I can find a place. Right now she is in a zip lock in a refrigerator. I am not confident I will be able to get her tested though as the few places I called declined help. I guess nobody cares about fish.

 

[Fishymishy]

Hopefully these are better quality pictures.

 

[Andy Sager]

If you are near a veterinarian or aquatic school, you may have better luck. In truth the chances are they will charge you for the service more than this type of fish is worth. Most people in Florida use either University of Florida in Gainsville or the Rosenstiel School at University of Miami in Miami.

 

[Colin_T]

The outside of the fish appears fine so the issue was internal, probably an infection in the brain or body.


As Andy said, it's expensive and most vets will charge anywhere from $50-100+ for a necrosy of a fish, plus the cost of culturing if required. If you contact your local department of agriculture, they might have a fish health unit that can do it. Sometimes they charge, most times they charge businesses but do it for free for home aquarists.


A university biology department might do it, (especially if they deal with fish or do fish related vet courses).


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If you want to preserve the fish, put it in a small glass container with a 25% alcohol solution (have a lid on it). Leave it for 2 days, then tip the alcohol out and replace it with a fresh 25% alcohol solution.

 

[Fishymishy]

I was able to find a university that agreed to test for mycobacterium species. Hopefully they actually go ahead and do it.

How long does it usually take to get results in your experience?

 

[Andy Sager]

I was able to find a university that agreed to test for mycobacterium species. Hopefully they actually go ahead and do it.

How long does it usually take to get results in your experience?

Hard to say because it all depends on how many specimens are before yours. When you send in the sample, ask them.

 

[Fishymishy]

I hand delivered her today already. She was going to be looked at the same day but they didn’t give me details beyond that. I assume it will take weeks to grow culture but wanted to hear from other’s experiences on what to expect in terms of answers when it comes to testing for TB.

 

[Andy Sager]

I hand delivered her today already. She was going to be looked at the same day but they didn’t give me details beyond that. I assume it will take weeks to grow culture but wanted to hear from other’s experiences on what to expect in terms of answers when it comes to testing for TB.

As I said, we cannot give you an answer because it all depends on what the university has going on. Maybe they have a student doing the tests? Maybe they need to compare their findings to 1000s of other pathogens? Maybe they are using it for a teaching moment and there's no class for the next couple of days ( despite what they told you. ) You should contact the university for a better answer. I know the Florida fish farmers use UF so they get their answers rather quickly while I had things done at UM and it took weeks to get an answer. Hopefully they are going to test for more than just TB.
I know when I did sensitivity cultures for medicines, they usually took 2 days to get a good reading while you could get a hint in 24 hours. But this was for treatment not diagnostics.