is this ich? im new

[bulatz]

im new to this aquarium hobby and i just got these fish like 2 hours ago and now that i look at them i am questioning if they have ich, i guess its hard to tell from the pics but worth a try. they are small clown loaches, i noticed a tiny white dot on the fin of 2 of them.

now im questioning will shops really sell you fish that have disease?? it sounds very wrong and bad for business but i understand it can happen, wouldn't they observe the fish they are selling at least a little bit? or am i hoping to much here haha.

 

[bulatz]

ya nevermind now that they finally came up to front of glass and sat there for a 30 seconds and i saw close up they definitely have it. a good amount of white spots on them... what is the next course of action for me? i buy ich-x i guess and start slightly raising temps in the tank? bad thing is im very busy the next 2-3 days.. i dont have an extra tank to quarintine but i have a big black bin i can quarantine them in if thats a good idea.

if i take the fish out now will my tank and other 5 fish be safe? its 75 gallons 5 kulhi loaches.
will i be able to take the fish back or is that just not how to go about it.
the clown loaches that might have ich have been in my tank for 3-4 hours now and have already eaten and seem very at home in my tank which is surprising to me no signs of any struggle or weird behavior at all either...

sorry for many questions i just didnt think id have to deal with this, this early on only 1 month in kinda mad. never shopping at that place again.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Dont quarantine. If the fish has ich, the whole tank is infected. The parasites will be infecting the fish, they will be in the water and substrate. All your fish are already infected or will be shortly whether you remove infected fish or not.

Try and get a clearer photo. The ones you posted are blurry. There are many conditions that are easily mistaken for ich.

 

[Andy Sager]

For starters, most fish stores do not usually sell sick fish on purpose but things happen. Sadly, in today's hobby, all fish should be quarantined for at least 4-6 weeks at least to ensure that they are not carrying pathogens that may not be showing signs yet. Ich usually starts in the gills so they may not be showing signs yet if the fish are new to the store.

Unfortunately, Clown Loaches are notorious for getting ick because they get stressed very easily and are usually not kept at high enough temperatures. ( They like it warmer than many tropicals with more water movement. ) Acceptable treatments are Fritz FixIck, Seachem Paraguard or Aquarium Solutions Ich-X. Another method is to raise the temperatue to 86 degrees, increase the aeration in the tank, do water changes and siphon water from the substrate level where Ick parasites are when not on the fish. With the high heat alone, it increases the life cycle of the parasite but the treatment is 2 weeks long minimum and the fish need to be able to handle the high heat. Often times, since water at higher temperatures does not hold as much oxygen, the failures are because there is not enough oxygenation happening vs the fish not handling the treatment. So Meds are quicker, heat, when done correctly, is safer. :^s

As for your other fish, once Ich is in your tank, it can attack any fish in there if they get stressed so I'd consider your whole tank contaminated. Whichever treatment you choose should be done in the main tank.

With all that said, Ich is usually a symptom of a bigger problem more than a problem itself. If the fish are stressed, they get ich. So you need to determine why the fish were stressed and correct that.

 

[bulatz]

i have a brand new phone and i cant get it to take a clear picture lol hopefully this is good enough

im not going to worry to much yet i guess cause they seem to be doing just fine. really enjoying the tank already i feel

 

[bulatz]

thanks for that, well they are brand new only 3 hours in the tank and i just was looking at them closely and seen white spots my other fish have been fine just the new ones but i just bought a water heater though comes tommorow. my water is always at 76 F, that doesnt seem that bad though?

 

[bulatz]

so one of the clown loaches died and the other 2 i know when i wake up tommorow good chance they are going to be dead also. 1st one was alive for only 1 1/2 days and tommorow will make 2 days. my probably silly question is if ich killed my new fish and my other kulhi loaches are doing fine still would i still medicate and raise temps in my tank? or is that unneeded stress on them?

 

[Aiken Drum]

If there is ich in the tank you need to treat the tank.

Medicating aquariums is always stressful for the fish, stress kills fish. Its unfortunate, but necessary. Given you know whatever store sold you infected fish, in the future look for a better store or quarantine new fish until you are confident they arent infected.

Be aware that ich medication can only kill the parasites during its free swimming stage. The medication wont do anything to the parasites already infecting the fish, an infected fish will either live or die regardless of any medication you do. All you can do is raise the temperature a little to shorten the time before the parasites drop off the fish, shorten the life cycle of the parasite overall and therefore shorten the length of time medication is needed in the water so it can kill the parasites in their freeswimming stage.

At your 76f/ 24c the lifecycle is 3 or 4 weeks. At 80f/ 27c that lifecycle is about a week and the infected stage is much shorter. If you raise the temperature further to 86f /30c the temperature alone is usually enough to kill the parasite and there is no need to medicate. But raised temperature is needed otherwise your fish stay infected for longer, and you need to medicate for longer. Dont do the 86f/ 30c temperature treatment and medication together as thats double the stress.

As long as there are fish in the tank, unless you eradicate the parasites you will have ich in the tank. If you stop treatment all your surviving fish will always be infected and any new fish you get will become infected. Otherwise healthy fish will often show no symptoms of ich, but as soon as something effects their immune system, maybe months or years from now, the infection will become worse and visible again.

If all the fish die, there will be no carrier for the parasite and the parasites will naturally just die off when their lifecycle gets to the infectious stage. So you could leave a fish free aquarium for a couple of weeks with temperature at 80f/ 27c and that should kill off the parasites also.

 

[bulatz]

very interesting this ich to see it though. ive had my temps to 80-81 for a week, it finally dissapeared from my clown loach who brought it in originally so then i guess its in stage 2, looking for new fish to attach to in the water column. later that night ich is all on my poor kulhi loaches. they seem to not be affected really by it but im irritated still waiting on ich-x ordered it a week ago comes tommorow finally. guess its good to get thru this early on and learn from it. will post again when i notice ich is gone from my tank.

i have the fluval 407 canister filter i guess when i add ich-x i have to take out the 4 black carbon filters in it because it will take out the chemicals? but i can leave the bio-foam and bio max in there?

 

[Aiken Drum]

After the infected stage, the parasite leaves the body of the fish and goes to the substrate to reproduce. Then the new parasites go free swimming, and its only in the free swimming stage that medication is effective.

Note that different individual parasites will be at different stages of their lifecycles. Not all will be free swimming at the same time for instance. Some parasites will be infecting fish, some will be reproducing, some will be freeswimming.

Also, healthy fish with good immune systems can be infected and show no symptoms. If not fully killed off, your tank will remain infected and you might see no signs. It could be years later when a fish is otherwise unhealthy or stressed before ich symptoms reappear.

Yes, you need to remove the carbon from the filter.

Some info on carbon.

Carbon removes organic compounds and some metals from the water. These organic compounds can be tannins from driftwood which cause tea like colour in the water, so carbon is often used in new tanks to get the water clear until the tannins have leached out. Organic compounds can cause odours so carbon is used to remove these odours. After a course of medication you want to remove the medication from the tank and carbon will do this. If you arent dealing with any of these issues, carbon is doing nothing useful. Tannins are temporary and should leach out of driftwood after a short period of being submerged. If you keep up with your tank maintenance, there shouldn't be smells. Medication is only a short term occurance. Ordinarily you dont need carbon, it isnt doing anything. Carbon only lasts a few weeks before it needs replacing, its expensive. You really dont need it in your filtration. Use it for its intended purpose, then stop using it once whatever you are dealing with is done.

As to your other filter media, yes leave that in there. But be aware that the active ingredient in ich x is malachite green, which is a mild anti biotic and might kill off the microbes responsible for your cycle. Malachite green is also a green dye, and it will stain silicone, tubing, rocks, decorations, your clothes, etc.

 

[bulatz]

last question thanks for all the info really. so it fell off the clown loach that brought it in originally only for one day though had no white dots on it looked normal. Next day it had it back and also a few of my kuhli loaches have them now. do i just begin medicating right now or wait till they fall off my fish again and begin right away to medicate?

 

[Aiken Drum]

You need to medicate for a full life cycle. If you start today, its a full life cycle from today. If you start next week, its a full lifecycle from next week. The difference between today and next week is if its next week then fish that arent currently infected might become so over the next week. The medication is going to interupt the lifecycle and prevent uninfected fish becoming infected. It wont do anything to help already infected fish, they will either die or survive regardless.

As said, at a typical tropical aquarium temperature, that complete lifecycle is 3 or 4 weeks. At 80f/ 27c its about a week. If you have raised the temperature, then to be safe keep any medication in the tank for 5 or 6 days after the last signs of visible infection.

And im also going to throw in that you now know your fish store sold you infected fish, and the likelihood is they will do so again. If you buy fish from them again, make sure you quarantine fish for a suitable period to avoid going through all this again. If they show signs of ich in quarantine, you can medicate in there without unnecessarily stressing healthy fish in your display tank.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Oh. And check the medication instructions to see what it says about loaches. Loaches can be intolerant of medication, so see what the manufacturer says about this.

And as previously said, the medication can crash your cycle. So check your water parameters frequently, change water as needed, remember to redose medication in proportion to the amount of water changed. Gravel vacs will help reduce the amount of parasites in the substrate, and reduce the number the medication needs to kill off.

 

[Andy Sager]

I will also add that when the parasites first leave the fish, they are at a stage that medications do not work real well because they have formed a hard shell around them however, when they are off the fish and in the substrate, they are reproducing and that is when they are most susceptible to medications before they attach to another fish. Most people think when they are off the fish that they have cured the problem so they stop medicating while that is exactly when they should be.

 

[bulatz]

just to update i used ich-x for 3 days only but will continue for like the bottle says 5-7 days. its worked awesome no ich on any fish right now. they are playful and back to normal. kind of a pain doing small water changes every day and cleaning parts of substrate before medicating but it says you gotta do it.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Continue medicating for 6 days after the last signs of visible infection.

Remember that the medication isnt doing anything to infected fish, the infection is clearing up naturally as the parasites move on the feeding/ infectious stage. So its now that the medication is being effective killing the freeswimming parasites.