More guppy questions sorry...

[GuPpYnEwBiE82]

Sorry for the third post in only a week or so, but I'm trying to learn as much as I can about keeping my little guppies well as quickly as I can - especially considering I started off in the worst way with what I now know was poor advice to sell fish/products!

My guppies are doing well in their new 60 litre tank and I am much more clued up thanks to great advice on this thread - my only concern is for my little yellow guppy.

He has always been the most passive and none of the others chase him like they do with the rest, they're very civil. My concern is for him physically - he has been a kind of downward curved shape since I got him, and was always less "darty" than the others but did swim around and interact.

He does still swim around with the others but his curve seems a little bit worse, and he doesn't have the speed of the others. He eats well, he goes all over the tank exploring and I've seen him picking at algae - he is in fact one of the first to the top for his flakes.

I've looked it up and it mentions scary things like TB and scoliosis, none of the others seem affected and he doesn't tilt sideways or upside down or have bouancy issues like mentioned with swim bladder (not that I know anything other than what I have read).

I didn't give these little guys the best start out of ignorance, but they seem to be doing so well despite that - I just want to make sure if there is anything I can do for him, I will, or if it is something I can't help (but don't want him to be in any pain or anything!)

I noticed it only 2 days after bringing him home and took a video to show the pet shop and (surprise surprise) they sold me something called Thera-P which I used only once saying he might be stressed. Could I be causing him stress now somehow? He isn't picked on at all, and I am obsessively checking my water parameters and feeding better food now too (although any further suggestions welcome).

Thanks so much, and sorry for yet another post. Also, I can't get the photos to rotate so apologies for sideways photos.

 

[Andy Sager]

Sadly, the 2 most common causes of curved spine are TB and poor nutrition. You haven't had him long enough for it to be a nutritional thing so the most likely cause is TB. Just an FYI, most guppies today are farmed raised fish and many of the Asian farms have TB in their lines. That's just a sad reality. What causes fish to succumb to the bacteria after being exposed is stress. You said the spine was slightly curved when you got the fish which would mean the stress came before you got him. The fact that he's been the " most passive" is a sign of weakness in a fish which is probably why the other Guppies were not chasing him in the beginning but that will change as the fish's health deteriorates. That's actually a bad thing because that's how the disease spreads to the other fish when they eat the effected fish.
At this point, I would euthanize the fish if you are past the return policy of the place you got the fish from. You also want to be very careful when/if you replace this fish. Guppies should be very active chasing after either the females or the other males trying to show dominance. If a Guppy isn't doing that, I wouldn't purchase them.

 

[Aiken Drum]

The fish have been fed a plant based only diet for several weeks at the OPs home and for however long they where at the store before they were bought. Essentially algae wafers.

 

[GuPpYnEwBiE82]

Yes for the first 14 days they only had the Novofect vege tablets here (and this is what the shop are feeding them all) so they advised I continue with the same food. It's only when I looked it up and Aiken Drum suggested other food - they were then switched to the Tetra Guppy flakes.

What would be better food to buy for them that might help? Or is it too late? I feel awful.

He is swimming and interacting and eats like a little horse - would it be ok to monitor him? He doesn't have any sores on him, is the same colour etc he's just slower and more passive than the rest.

 

[GuPpYnEwBiE82]

He is swimming around with everyone now, but then explores on his own again...

And doesn't always look so curved?

 

[Andy Sager]

He is swimming and interacting and eats like a little horse - would it be ok to monitor him? He doesn't have any sores on him, is the same colour etc he's just slower and more passive than the rest.

If you wanted to just monitor him in a separate tank, that would be better than in the main tank as IF this is fish TB, it is communicable so if the fish gets weak enough for the other fish to start picking on him, he will be spreading it to the other fish. IF this is a nutritional issue, adding liquid vitamins to the diet would help. There are plenty of foods that are designed specifically for Guppies. Adding SOME vegetable matter ( via flake or frozen) also helps. Unfortunately, to my knowledge, Fish TB & scoliosis have no treatment for long term success or reverse the curve. Eventually it just gets too hard for the fish to swim. Add to that the strain of trying to use those bigger tails that are not natural to the specie which makes it hard for the fish to defend itself.

 

[GuPpYnEwBiE82]

If you wanted to just monitor him in a separate tank, that would be better than in the main tank as IF this is fish TB, it is communicable so if the fish gets weak enough for the other fish to start picking on him, he will be spreading it to the other fish. IF this is a nutritional issue, adding liquid vitamins to the diet would help. There are plenty of foods that are designed specifically for Guppies. Adding SOME vegetable matter ( via flake or frozen) also helps. Unfortunately, to my knowledge, Fish TB & scoliosis have no treatment for long term success or reverse the curve. Eventually it just gets too hard for the fish to swim. Add to that the strain of trying to use those bigger tails that are not natural to the specie which makes it hard for the fish to defend itself.

Bless them these little fish can go through so much!

I do have my 30 litre tank that I was sold originally still set up, it only has a few nuisance snails in atm though as I moved the fish to the bigger tank as soon as I could and I've only done water changes every other day in the old tank so the nitrates are HIGH. I have done a 50% water change in my smaller tank today and will get more plants (I moved all 3 to the bigger tank) so I can move him in there for monitoring once the water parameters are sorted. I'm checking them daily in this new tank as they got out of control on such a small tank with the 8 fish I was advised to get!!

I've looked around and I will go to the shops tomorrow to get some frozen brine shrimp (?) I want to make sure I don't get them anything that could have parasites/hurt them. It says freeze dried is ok but obvs not as fresh. And it mentions bloodworms but not to feed often...
Those veggie tablets claims to have fish and molluscs in but says "professional feeding of plant eating aquarium fish" which guppies are clearly not!

Would you be able to recommend a trusted liquid vitamin product please? I don't trust these shops anymore!

Thanks for your help - I'm still really hoping he is just a naturally lazy guppy and he will be ok He is enjoying swimming through the bubbles right now .. He is the only one who doesn't have a fancy fan tail and has always swum more like a little tadpole with his shape.

 

[Andy Sager]

Bless them these little fish can go through so much!

I do have my 30 litre tank that I was sold originally still set up, it only has a few nuisance snails in atm though as I moved the fish to the bigger tank as soon as I could and I've only done water changes every other day in the old tank so the nitrates are HIGH. I have done a 50% water change in my smaller tank today and will get more plants (I moved all 3 to the bigger tank) so I can move him in there for monitoring once the water parameters are sorted. I'm checking them daily in this new tank as they got out of control on such a small tank with the 8 fish I was advised to get!!

I've looked around and I will go to the shops tomorrow to get some frozen brine shrimp (?) I want to make sure I don't get them anything that could have parasites/hurt them. It says freeze dried is ok but obvs not as fresh. And it mentions bloodworms but not to feed often...
Those veggie tablets claims to have fish and molluscs in but says "professional feeding of plant eating aquarium fish" which guppies are clearly not!

Would you be able to recommend a trusted liquid vitamin product please? I don't trust these shops anymore!

Thanks for your help - I'm still really hoping he is just a naturally lazy guppy and he will be ok He is enjoying swimming through the bubbles right now .. He is the only one who doesn't have a fancy fan tail and has always swum more like a little tadpole with his shape.

I can suggest that if you only have snails in the other tank, you can do a 100% water change and use the water from the main tank to fill the smaller tank. I'd go even further and say to treat this whole operation as a routine water change in the main tank and smaller tank so use the main tank water but add only enough water to fill about 75% of the tank and fill up the rest with new clean water.
As for vitamins, there are a number of them on the market now but I've only used Vita-Chem by Boyd enterprises. Another option would be to switch to the Dr Bassleer food ( https://www.aquarium-munster.com/en... contains,distinctly more colorful and active. ) which is already enriched with vitamins and minerals. Just choose a smaller granule size for the Guppies.

 

[GuPpYnEwBiE82]

I can suggest that if you only have snails in the other tank, you can do a 100% water change and use the water from the main tank to fill the smaller tank. I'd go even further and say to treat this whole operation as a routine water change in the main tank and smaller tank so use the main tank water but add only enough water to fill about 75% of the tank and fill up the rest with new clean water.
As for vitamins, there are a number of them on the market now but I've only used Vita-Chem by Boyd enterprises. Another option would be to switch to the Dr Bassleer food ( https://www.aquarium-munster.com/en... contains,distinctly more colorful and active. ) which is already enriched with vitamins and minerals. Just choose a smaller granule size for the Guppies.

Thank you so much Really appreciate all the great advice! It's so helpful when you're starting out as it can feel a bit overwhelming tbh - there's so much info and different products available.

He is looking fantastic this morning though I have to say, looking less curved and interacting so well! I'll do the water changes and then look at moving him to the smaller tank to monitor

 

[GuPpYnEwBiE82]

Sorry, one more question ...

I bought some frozen bloodworms and frozen brine shrimp for the guppies today

I know these are only for a few times a week, but for 8 guppies how much of the frozen cube should I defrost? I'm mindful of overfeeding them. They only have the guppy flakes atm as I am feeding them lightly as they are in the very early stages of being in their new tank...

 

[Andy Sager]

Sorry, one more question ...

I bought some frozen bloodworms and frozen brine shrimp for the guppies today

I know these are only for a few times a week, but for 8 guppies how much of the frozen cube should I defrost? I'm mindful of overfeeding them. They only have the guppy flakes atm as I am feeding them lightly as they are in the very early stages of being in their new tank...

You are going to have to experiment to know how much to thaw. Start with a small amount and if that's too small, thaw more for the next feeding. You can always add more food if it's not enough but too much will be wasteful and cause problems if it's in the tank.

 

[GuPpYnEwBiE82]

You are going to have to experiment to know how much to thaw. Start with a small amount and if that's too small, thaw more for the next feeding. You can always add more food if it's not enough but too much will be wasteful and cause problems if it's in the tank.

Fab, thank you

 

[GuPpYnEwBiE82]

I have just been checking on the little yellow guppy this evening and his body now looks swollen is this dropsy??

I'm so sad, I don't want to lose him! He seems to be much more lively so I was hoping he was recovering.

If I put him in the other tank on his own now, what is the best way to treat him please?

 

[Andy Sager]

No, this is not dropsy. TBH, the best you can do is euthanize. There is no treatment for what he probably has. If you want, place him in the other tank and see if getting more food without competition helps. That's best you can do to keep him alive. Stranger things have happened but I wouldn't get my hopes up too high. Sadly, this is a reality of fish keeping. Fish are going to die and there's nothing we can do about it. What we can do is get the healthiest pets possible by dealing with reliable sources and breeders. Sometimes, that means you are going to pay more but if you deal with the right places, you get what you pay for.

 

[GuPpYnEwBiE82]

What do you think it could be?

I've already cried 3 times tonight - I'm clearly not cut out for keeping fish. I already feel so attached to him and I feel helpless.

I will need to get another air stone for the second tank as I hadn't planned on setting anything up in there before he became unwell. I'll get one tomorrow.

Will his stress increase from being lonely?

 

[Andy Sager]

What do you think it could be?

I've already cried 3 times tonight - I'm clearly not cut out for keeping fish. I already feel so attached to him and I feel helpless.

I will need to get another air stone for the second tank as I hadn't planned on setting anything up in there before he became unwell. I'll get one tomorrow.

Will his stress increase from being lonely?

No to the second question and you'd need an autopsy or biopsy to confirm the first question however, in regards to the first question, when a number of the same fish have the same issue that has been confirmed by another, the odds go way up that it too has the same thing. It's not curable and you need to be really careful having your hands in the tank(s) if you have any open wounds on your hands or arms and you need to wash well after being inside the aquarium.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Unfortunately not every fish you buy is going to be healthy. Its common practice for new fish purchases to be quarantined for a number of weeks, and only fish that are observed to be free of genetic defects, infection etc (or have been successfully treated) are transferred to your display tank.

Fish are often bred in unsanitary conditions, intensively
inbred, shipped half way across the globe living in their own waste, the dead ones will get removed, the live ones will be quarantined in the store for a short period before being sold. Buying locally bred fish can help. My LFS identifies locally bred guppies, as opposed to the others which i presume come from asia or eastern europe. You might be able to find a local hobbyist breeder and get fish direct from them which should lead to healthier fish.

To throw into the mix, Andy knows his medications very well, but unfortunately outside of the US antibiotic medications are often controlled and only available with a vets prescription to prevent misuse. This is financially prohibitive for small, cheap fish. Nobody is paying £100s to treat a £2 guppy. Might be worth it for £1000 koi. So fish illnesses that can be treated with over the counter antibiotic medication in the US, arent as likely to recover with whats available here in the UK. All of those medications you see on the shelf somewhere like maidenhead aquatics are mostly useless against bacterial infection, or at least not as effective as medication in countries that dont have as much control.

Found an interesting article on fish TB. The BCG vaccine against TB is effective against fish TB. So if you have been vaccinated it should give some protection, and also vaccinated fish stocks can be protected. Whether that translates to use in the aquatics trade remains to be seen, but it is being considered for food stocks of fish.

 

[GuPpYnEwBiE82]

Unfortunately not every fish you buy is going to be healthy. Its common practice for new fish purchases to be quarantined for a number of weeks, and only fish that are observed to be free of genetic defects, infection etc (or have been successfully treated) are transferred to your display tank.

Fish are often bred in unsanitary conditions, intensively
inbred, shipped half way across the globe living in their own waste, the dead ones will get removed, the live ones will be quarantined in the store for a short period before being sold. Buying locally bred fish can help. My LFS identifies locally bred guppies, as opposed to the others which i presume come from asia or eastern europe. You might be able to find a local hobbyist breeder and get fish direct from them which should lead to healthier fish.

To throw into the mix, Andy knows his medications very well, but unfortunately outside of the US antibiotic medications are often controlled and only available with a vets prescription to prevent misuse. This is financially prohibitive for small, cheap fish. Nobody is paying £100s to treat a £2 guppy. Might be worth it for £1000 koi. So fish illnesses that can be treated with over the counter antibiotic medication in the US, arent as likely to recover with whats available here in the UK. All of those medications you see on the shelf somewhere like maidenhead aquatics are mostly useless against bacterial infection, or at least not as effective as medication in countries that dont have as much control.

Found an interesting article on fish TB. The BCG vaccine against TB is effective against fish TB. So if you have been vaccinated it should give some protection, and also vaccinated fish stocks can be protected. Whether that translates to use in the aquatics trade remains to be seen, but it is being considered for food stocks of fish.

Thank you for this - I've been awake all night worrying. Thank you both for always being very helpful and informative on everything.

I definitely was not prepared for the amount of work and upset that comes with these little fish, and I get too upset if anything happens

 

[Andy Sager]

Thank you for this - I've been awake all night worrying. Thank you both for always being very helpful and informative on everything.

I definitely was not prepared for the amount of work and upset that comes with these little fish, and I get too upset if anything happens

In the course of my life I have kept many different types of pets. Dogs, multiple Bird species, multiple Rodent species, Multiple reptile species, one hundred plus fish species, Monkeys and more. Needles to say, if I got sick, the first question my Dr always asked me was " What animal were you playing with now???? LOL " But the one point a Veterinarian friend told me as I was having to put down my dog of 16 years that sticks with me to this day was this: " Sadly, we humans keep pets that do not live as long as we do. The best thing we can do for them is give them the best life they can have while they are with us. " To my knowledge, there are only about 3 or 4 "Pet" animals that can live longer than we do. A couple of bird species and a Tortoise or two. Even the great apes, (Chimps, Gorillas, Orangs) do not live as long as humans so if we are going to keep pets, we have to do so with the understanding that they are going to die, most likely before we do. Speaking as a former member of the pet industry, Not everyone is built to be a pet owner. If the stress of keeping them outways the enjoyment you get from having them, pets may not be the best thing for you.
If you want to continue with keeping fish or move on to animals that have longer life spans, you need to do a lot of research BEFORE getting the animal. Some of the best information you can get is going to come from clubs ( online or in person) for that animal. For example, if you want to know about dogs, the Kennel Clubs or specie specific clubs are a great resource. Birds, regional zoos or ornithology clubs would be a good place to ask questions. Fish, Fish clubs or public aquariums would be good sources. etc. Sadly, the pet shops today are not always the best place for accurate information anymore. Clubs like AA ( here) or local to you are also great sources for information. That said tho, not everybody who posts advice has the experience to accurately advise you. So you never take just one person's advice ( except for mine. ) My library of fish books alone could be made into 3 stacks that reached taller than myself and I'm 5'9". ( I lost over 1/3 of them to a tank leak. A lesson not in the books ) The more information you get and have, the better your chances of success with that pet will be. No pet should ever be an " impulse" buy. ( I say this in general, not towards you specifically. )

Hope this helps.