Overcrowded Endlers - stunted growth?

[Enchantress]

Hi,
I have a 45 litre planted tank (I think it's 11 US gallons, but correct me if I'm wrong) with Endlers, and they have now reached about 30 in number, maybe slightly more. They are all healthy, no deformities, eating well and active, and in the year that I've had them I've never had any illness break out; it's just that the new generations don't seem to be growing to the size they theoretically should. I have some fully coloured, sexually mature males that are nearly half the size of the original ones I bought, and they just seem to have stopped growing. Same goes for the females; they're all much smaller than my original ones, I only have 2 or 3 that are the proper size (about 1.8 inches). The rest seem to have stopped at sub-adult size. They are built proportionately though, and appear otherwise healthy. I'm worried that they are becoming stunted because of overcrowding, but honestly I'm not sure, and they're not showing any other symptoms. I've upped their feeding to 3 x a day, just in case it was simply a matter of too little food, but I'd certainly appreciate some input regarding whether or not stunting in Endlers is possible, and whether my tank is dramatically overcrowded. If it is, I'll try to do something about it, but I really don't have much of a reference point.
Thanks in advance.

 

[coralbandit]

I would not consider your tank over crowded..
If they eat you should feed as often as possible to grow fish..
You failed to mention water change schedule.If you are changing based on test results I will just double your water changes right away.
To grow fish you need to change as much water in proportion to how you feed.
Many with average tanks normally stocked and fed 1x a day change 50% a week. With the added load of fish and food I would be changing 50% 3x a week minimum.
There are real breeder links who basically prove overstocking growing fish encourages the fish to eat more and more vigorously.. The spirit of competition and all.
Many say the discus breeder/keepers are the best....Ask them how they do it ...They feed 6x a day and change 70-90% daily...No joke...
Growing male livebearers secrete a growth inhibiting hormone to restrict or restrain other males from growing as large ..This is part of why the 'late blooming' male occurs often....
How much water are you changing????

 

[tunamanphd]

I breed and grow three different species of Endlers all in 10 gallon tanks. All my Endler tanks have well over 50 fish each with no issues. As Coralbandit stated , clean water. I change water 3-4 times/week . I also feed 3x day .

 

[Enchantress]

Many with average tanks normally stocked and fed 1x a day change 50% a week. With the added load of fish and food I would be changing 50% 3x a week minimum.

Wouldn't that destabilize the water even more? I change 1/3 of the water every week, spread out over 3 days so as not to shock the fish. I also give them one day a week without food, to let their digestive systems rest.

 

[Enchantress]

I breed and grow three different species of Endlers all in 10 gallon tanks. All my Endler tanks have well over 50 fish each with no issues. As Coralbandit stated , clean water. I change water 3-4 times/week . I also feed 3x day .

And are yours all normal size - i.e. 1 inch for males, and 1.8 inches for females? Haven't you noticed that the later generations are slightly smaller?

 

[coralbandit]

Water changes done properly do not stress the fish.
Match temp and use same source water.
I change up to 90% at single time without issue for my rams.
By changing only a little broken up to even smaller bites you are removing hardly anything..
Lets math this out !
10ppm nitrite and a 50% water change leaves you with 5 ppm[you removed 1/2].
10ppm with a 10% change leaves you 9 . A day or two later another 10% leaves 8-9. Another 2-3 days and 10% leaves you 7-8...
Even a straight 30% change would leave you with 7pmm.
The % you change is the % you remove.. You are not removing much IMO with the small changes..

 

[Enchantress]

Hm. OK. And you think this could be somehow inhibiting their growth? I do remove all the grime from the bottom, though, which is the main source of nitrite and ammonia spikes, from what I understand. I've always heard that 10-30% water changes a week are enough, to be honest, because if you do frequent large water changes it can damage the population of beneficial bacteria in the tank. But if you think I should up the changes, I can try and see how it works.

 

[coralbandit]

The bacteria you want live on surfaces and not in the water.
No damage occurs by changing water.
Always dechlorinate. Match temp with in 2-3 degrees.
I whole heartedly think the lack of water changes is a major factor in your situation.
I grow fish bigger then most and it is done by feeding heavy and changing water equally..I sell a lot of fish so this is not guess work.
Math says 30% out means 70% is left behind[ of waste ,as even food eaten turns to waste]. Done repeatedly you are building up to bad levels. You should experience no ammonia or nitrite spikes in properly cycled and managed tank.

 

[Enchantress]

OK, I'll try upping the changes then. I might also get the water tested for nitrites and ammonia, just to be sure.

 

[tunamanphd]

OK, I'll try upping the changes then. I might also get the water tested for nitrites and ammonia, just to be sure.

Not at all, I change a lot of water and feed good quality food

 

[Enchantress]

tunamanphd, I think you quoted the wrong post But thanks for the reply

 

[tunamanphd]

lol I did , oops. But yeah, I have no issues . I have some great looking, healthy endlers(N-Class Blackbars, K-Class Magenta, and P-Class Bluestars)

 

[Enchantress]

lol I did , oops. But yeah, I have no issues . I have some great looking, healthy endlers(N-Class Blackbars, K-Class Magenta, and P-Class Bluestars)

Oh, I'm soo envious of the N-class :0 Mine are Campoma no 9, which aren't included in the ECS, but they are a wild phenotype and come from a pure stock. Very pretty fish. I was just worried that my tank was grossly overstocked and causing the fish to not develop properly, especially since I'm not selling any off But thanks for the reassuring replies and tips.