Problems with inverts?

[AdamHorton]

So I don't know why it took me this long to realize what's been happening, but I've been adding ferts to my 20G planted tank for a couple of months now, and my MTS and ghost shrimps (and RCS) have all been gradually dying. Yesterday I put in another dose of fertilizers and today I found my last two ghost shrimp dead...

I'm guessing one of my ferts is causing problems for invertibrates. The pond snails are the only things really surviving and they're hanging out near the top of the tank, sort of out of the water, which I realize now means that they don't like the water.

Here's what I'm dosing: I dose 3X every two weeks and then do a 50% water change every two weeks. The plants have been doing great. Each dose consists of:

5 mL Nutrafin Plant Gro (for micro nutrients)
1 capful Flourish Excel
1/4 tsp. Potassium Sulfate
1/4 tsp. Mono Potassium Phosphate.

I condition my water with Prime, of course

The fish are doing great as well. I realize this is probably horribly obvious for you all -- if the answer is to not have inverts anymore, well, the problem just got solved tonight. The only inverts I have left are pond snails and if they make it through all of this, they'll be puffer food one day when I get a puffer.

So, which chemical is the most likely culprit?

 

[mgamer20o0]

try skipping the excel and see how it goes.

 

[JohnPaul]

Most likely the excel, I have read plenty of reports from invert keepers that when they dose excel according to the bottle directions, it has had bad effects on their shrimp. I dose very small amounts of excel in my planted shrimp tanks without problems, but when I mean small, I mean something like half a capful twice a month in a 10g tank.

The other possible culprit could be the micronutrient mix, depending upon the concentration of copper in it--copper is extremely toxic to inverts. I use (regular) Flourish as my source of trace, but again, I dose at way way way less than the bottle recommends...usually like 1 thread of a capful (so ~ 1 ml) once a month, which is about one-fifth of the recommend dosage.

I'd be a little worried, as ghost shrimp are the hardiest shrimp I have ever run across, they are almost impossible to kill. I've had them live through all kinds of things--including a time when I was gone for over a week on vacation, lost power the day after I left (killing my HOB filter) and came back from vacation to a tank with nitrate levels of over 120 ppm. Killed virtually everything in the tank, but my 3 ghost shrimp were going right along as if nothing had happened.

 

[AdamHorton]

Well I looked it up and there is copper in there. Here's what their website says:

Copper (Cu) - 0.0005% [0.0005% Chelated Copper (Cu)]

I incorrectly stated the way I used it up there, though. I only dose the micro nutrients when I do the water change, so it's 5 mL once every two weeks. Does that sound like enough to cause a problem?

At this point, the only inverts left are pond snails. I can try seeing how the plants do without Excel, but if the answer is not to have inverts in this tank, then that's OK with me.

 

[JohnPaul]

Well I looked it up and there is copper in there. Here's what their website says:

Copper (Cu) - 0.0005% [0.0005% Chelated Copper (Cu)]

I incorrectly stated the way I used it up there, though. I only dose the micro nutrients when I do the water change, so it's 5 mL once every two weeks. Does that sound like enough to cause a problem?

I can't say for sure. The copper level in Flourish is 0.0001% so the stuff you are using has 5x the copper, but as for how much copper it takes to start becoming toxic, I really don't know. I have always erred on the side of not wanting to take the risk, as my interest is in my shrimp as a first priority, and plants only insofar as I can grow them in a way that doesn't negatively impact my shrimp.

At this point, the only inverts left are pond snails. I can try seeing how the plants do without Excel, but if the answer is not to have inverts in this tank, then that's OK with me.

Well maybe the better question is, how much less Excel could you use without a negative impact on your plants? The active ingredient in Excel is a polymerized form of gluteraldehyde...which is really nasty stuff. If your plants are uptaking all of the Excel you are putting in, then that's one thing. But if you are dosing more than your plants are using, then the stuff is just accumulating in the tank. Unfortunately it is impossible to really figure out what a "proper" dosing is (the instructions on the bottle are basically a crap shoot) since it depends on how many plants you have, how quickly they grow, etc. Given how toxic gluteraldehyde is (and as a chemist by training, I am quite aware), my theory would be to under-dose and then only increase dosage if your plants are showing physical symptoms of carbon deficiency. But that's just me.

 

[AdamHorton]

Wow, so that advice on Excel goes against some stuff I've heard on this forum -- they say that too much Excel is rarely a problem. Maybe they were speaking for plants only, and I get the feeling you're speaking for inverts only. Do you know anything about a negative effect on fish?

My priorities in this tank are fish, then plants, then inverts (since there are none at this point). I'd rather have them than not have them, but if it's a delicate balancing game where shrimps or plants can suffer if I'm not good at it, then I'm not quite ready for that yet. All of my fish seem very happy and like they're doing very well so I hope there are no problems...

A silly question: Sounds like I should do a large water change and start finding the minimum amount of Excel I can use without the plants suffering from it; so what are the physical symptoms of carbon deficiency in plants?

I thought recently I had achieved the proper balance of ferts in the tank, since the plants were growing and there wasn't any algae. Some of the leaves on my anubias die off when they get blocked from the light by other leaves, but other than that the plants are doing fine. Well, I'm also terrible a clipping stem plants and re-planting them, but that's a different story.

 

[JohnPaul]

Wow, so that advice on Excel goes against some stuff I've heard on this forum -- they say that too much Excel is rarely a problem. Maybe they were speaking for plants only, and I get the feeling you're speaking for inverts only. Do you know anything about a negative effect on fish?

"Too much" is relative. Often Excel is dosed at 3x or 4x the recommended level for very short periods to kill algae. Excel is essentially an algicide, though it doesn't claim to be such on the bottle because if it did, it would be classified by the EPA as a pesticide and Seachem (who makes it) would have to go through all kids of environmental impact statements etc. So officially, the only claim made for the produce is that it serves as a liquid carbon source for plant growth.

At those concentrations, it seems perfectly safe for fish, even sensitive fish. It is worth noting that certain types of aquarium plants will "melt" if exposed to levels of Excel that are too high; many vals, some crypts, and at least certain types of mosses fit into this category. There may be others. The moral of the story is that, just because "some" is good, does not necessarily mean "more" is better.

My priorities in this tank are fish, then plants, then inverts (since there are none at this point). I'd rather have them than not have them, but if it's a delicate balancing game where shrimps or plants can suffer if I'm not good at it, then I'm not quite ready for that yet. All of my fish seem very happy and like they're doing very well so I hope there are no problems...

Sounds like you are doing fine, other than the invert issues.

A silly question: Sounds like I should do a large water change and start finding the minimum amount of Excel I can use without the plants suffering from it; so what are the physical symptoms of carbon deficiency in plants?

Well if your plants & fish seem fine, and you are not worried about losing the inverts, then you could probably just stick to your regular water change schedule.

As for symptoms of deficiencies in aquarium plants, here is one resource. There are probably others like it you could find online as well.

I thought recently I had achieved the proper balance of ferts in the tank, since the plants were growing and there wasn't any algae. Some of the leaves on my anubias die off when they get blocked from the light by other leaves, but other than that the plants are doing fine. Well, I'm also terrible a clipping stem plants and re-planting them, but that's a different story.

It could be you have found the right balance. Or it could be you have a lack of algae due to surplus levels of an algicide in your tank.

You know, if you really wanted to figure out what was causing the problem, you could always set up 2 small buckets with some of the snails (if any are left alive) and then in one bucket dose excel but not the trace mixture, and the other bucket dose the trace mixture but not excel. In each case, dose the at the same or perhaps a little higher concentration than you are dosing your aquarium with. (Don't need any plants in the buckets at all.) Wait a few days and see which bucket you start seeing deaths in.

 

[AdamHorton]

Awesome. Lots of good info here. I think for now I'll tone down the Excel and see how much I really need, and maybe I'll do a couple of extra water changes in the next few weeks. Thanks for your help.

If I learn anything profound I'll update again.

 

[AdamHorton]

After one water change and a few days, I've noticed that now that I didn't add the Excel, the pond snails don't seem to mind the water as much, and the plants haven't been suffering all that much (at least from what I can tell).