Go Back   Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community > Freshwater > Cichlid Discussion
Click Here to Login

Join Aquarium Advice Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com
 
Old 09-24-2017, 12:56 PM   #1
Aquarium Advice Activist
 
murph3400's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 111
Appistograma

I am starting a 40 breeder and would love to have some Appistos. And thoughts on what I can start with. Would love to have a few pair. Unfortunately I have hard water ph 7.6. Is it a possibility. Woyld like to stick with amazonian theme and have some dither fish ad well. Reccomendation are welcome.
__________________

__________________
murph3400 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2017, 05:28 PM   #2
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
WiFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 50
Unless you find a wild pair, they will adjust just fine to your pH. Stable water parameters will be your biggest factor in keeping apistos. Consistent tempatures, low nitrates, and They will adapt to your pH just fine as long as they are acclimated correctly. Most fish I keep are supposed to be kept in acidic water and my pH is around 8.2

I do also want to note that most apistos need a mature aquarium and you should have a stable cycle for a few months before considering adding them. Maybe get your dither school to stabilize your cycle for a few months before adding a pair of apistos.
__________________

__________________
WiFi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2017, 09:22 AM   #3
Aquarium Advice Activist
 
murph3400's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 111
Any suggestions on dither schools
__________________
murph3400 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2017, 02:18 PM   #4
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
dalto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,104
Quote:
Originally Posted by murph3400 View Post
I am starting a 40 breeder and would love to have some Appistos. And thoughts on what I can start with. Would love to have a few pair. Unfortunately I have hard water ph 7.6. Is it a possibility. Woyld like to stick with amazonian theme and have some dither fish ad well. Reccomendation are welcome.
Even in a 40 breeder, you are looking at no more than 2 adult pairs. Even that may be pushing it. Personally, I would do a single trio in a tank that size and add some other fish.

Apistogramma cacatuoides is a great Apisto for moderate/hard water conditions. Most of the tank raised A. borellii will do OK as well.

With other Apistos, it will depend where they come from. Many of the black water species will be difficult to have success with in harder/high TDS water.

There are quite a few that come from more moderate waters though. It just depends which apistos you are looking at.

As for dithers, it depends if you want to raise the fry out. Apisto fry are tiny and most tetras/barbs etc will eat them. Pencilfish are a good choice if you want the fry to survive. Other peaceful cichlids will usually be OK as well since the Apistos are usually excellent parents and will chase them away. With 2 pair of apistos in the tank there might not be anywhere else to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi View Post
Unless you find a wild pair, they will adjust just fine to your pH. Stable water parameters will be your biggest factor in keeping apistos. Consistent tempatures, low nitrates, and They will adapt to your pH just fine as long as they are acclimated correctly. Most fish I keep are supposed to be kept in acidic water and my pH is around 8.2

I do also want to note that most apistos need a mature aquarium and you should have a stable cycle for a few months before considering adding them. Maybe get your dither school to stabilize your cycle for a few months before adding a pair of apistos.
As someone who has kept more than 30 species of Apistos I would say that this information contradicts virtually every experience I have had.

Apistos are usually fairly hardy and don't require an established tank that has been cycled months ahead of time. If you are finding them to be fragile, the more likely cause is not the state of your nitrogen cycle but that you are trying to keep them in hard, high TDS water. While this will be fine for some Apistos, many species will have difficulty.

Consistent parameters and low nitrates are pretty much good for all fish but that doesn't mean you can plop any fish into any water and be fine. It is often said that consistent parameters are better than specific parameters that swing wildly around as you try to alter the water and in most cases that is true. However, it is also true that keeping consistent and appropriate parameters is much closer to ideal.

I wrote a more thorough description of this a few years ago that I still believe to be true. If you are interested, you can read it here,
__________________
dalto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2017, 03:05 PM   #5
Aquarium Advice Activist
 
murph3400's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 111
I would be happy with Apistogramma cacatuoides. A pair would be fine.
__________________
murph3400 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2017, 03:07 PM   #6
Aquarium Advice Activist
 
murph3400's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 111
Ideally I would love to have other peacfull cichlids with them.
__________________
murph3400 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2017, 04:31 PM   #7
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
dalto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,104
Quote:
Originally Posted by murph3400 View Post
I would be happy with Apistogramma cacatuoides. A pair would be fine.
Great choice, I have found them to be very easy to keep. Both wild caught fish and the tank raised line bred variety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by murph3400 View Post
Ideally I would love to have other peacfull cichlids with them.
How about keyhole cichlids? They make great community fish.
__________________
dalto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2017, 08:07 PM   #8
Aquarium Advice Activist
 
murph3400's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 111
You think a pair of each would work?
__________________
murph3400 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2017, 02:12 AM   #9
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
WiFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalto View Post
Even in a 40 breeder, you are looking at no more than 2 adult pairs. Even that may be pushing it. Personally, I would do a single trio in a tank that size and add some other fish.

Apistogramma cacatuoides is a great Apisto for moderate/hard water conditions. Most of the tank raised A. borellii will do OK as well.

With other Apistos, it will depend where they come from. Many of the black water species will be difficult to have success with in harder/high TDS water.

There are quite a few that come from more moderate waters though. It just depends which apistos you are looking at.

As for dithers, it depends if you want to raise the fry out. Apisto fry are tiny and most tetras/barbs etc will eat them. Pencilfish are a good choice if you want the fry to survive. Other peaceful cichlids will usually be OK as well since the Apistos are usually excellent parents and will chase them away. With 2 pair of apistos in the tank there might not be anywhere else to go.


As someone who has kept more than 30 species of Apistos I would say that this information contradicts virtually every experience I have had.

Apistos are usually fairly hardy and don't require an established tank that has been cycled months ahead of time. If you are finding them to be fragile, the more likely cause is not the state of your nitrogen cycle but that you are trying to keep them in hard, high TDS water. While this will be fine for some Apistos, many species will have difficulty.

Consistent parameters and low nitrates are pretty much good for all fish but that doesn't mean you can plop any fish into any water and be fine. It is often said that consistent parameters are better than specific parameters that swing wildly around as you try to alter the water and in most cases that is true. However, it is also true that keeping consistent and appropriate parameters is much closer to ideal.

I wrote a more thorough description of this a few years ago that I still believe to be true. If you are interested, you can read it here,
Okay besides your opinion on them not needing an established tank, you pretty much said everything I did besides you added the factor of water hardness. Just because you've kept over 30 species of anything doesn't mean a thing if you can't keep them alive.. most apistos I know of live to be 5-7 years old depending specific species. That's either a lot of aquariums and major money or you've kept fish for years and years, some of which you must of had species of before being common in the trade.
__________________
WiFi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2017, 11:42 AM   #10
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
dalto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,104
Quote:
Originally Posted by murph3400 View Post
You think a pair of each would work?
The cacatuoides and the keyholes? There are never guarantees but a pair of each of those should be a pretty safe combination in a tank that size as long as the Apistos don't decide to make their home in the very center of the tank. If they start to do so, rearrange the tank and put some caves or pots at the far ends of the tank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi View Post
Just because you've kept over 30 species of anything doesn't mean a thing if you can't keep them alive.. most apistos I know of live to be 5-7 years old depending specific species. That's either a lot of aquariums and major money or you've kept fish for years and years, some of which you must of had species of before being common in the trade.
At the time in which I was keeping Apistogramma I had several racks of smaller tanks ranging from 10-30g. I was running more than 20 aquariums.

As for keeping them alive, it was a challenge at first. Some, such as A. cacatuoides, were easy to keep and breed. Others seemed fragile, though some did adapt. However, once I switched my Apistos to reconstituted RODI water and started providing each group of fish appropriate water conditions, it got much easier. They stopped being "fragile" and managing aggression became the biggest issue.

The reason I am so passionate about this subject is because I saw the difference between when I kept them in hard, alkaline water and when I moved them over to reconstituted RODI. The difference wasn't small.

I was surprised that even the fish in my display tank, which housed larger(than Apistos) SA cichlids, saw behavioral differences. Prior to the change, I thought those fish had all adapted well to my hard water but afterwards it became clear that while they were living, they were not thriving.
__________________
dalto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2017, 01:19 PM   #11
Aquarium Advice Activist
 
murph3400's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 111
@dalto
I am willing to committ to using RODI and replenish just not sure how yet. I wanted to start with fishless cycle. Do I start of with reconstituted RO or tap then switch over? How does tge recon work?
__________________
murph3400 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2017, 05:16 PM   #12
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
dalto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,104
Quote:
Originally Posted by murph3400 View Post
@dalto
I wanted to start with fishless cycle. Do I start of with reconstituted RO or tap then switch over?
If your water is hard and alkaline I would recommend doing your fishless cycle with dechlorinated tap water. The reason for that a fishless cycle consumes kh and using high kh water ensures you won't have any ph crashes during your cycle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by murph3400 View Post
I am willing to committ to using RODI and replenish just not sure how yet. <snip> How does tge recon work?
Neither keyhole cichlids nor A. cacatuoides require very soft water so I don't think you need to use reconstituted RODI unless you are planning to keep some different species requiring softer water.

That being said, the process is simple. You take pure RODI water and add mineral content and some type of buffer. Personally, I use a product called RO Right for mineralization and some combination of Seachem Acid Regulator and Seachem Neutral Regulator as a buffer.

In your case, I think it would be easier to just mix your tap with RODI water. I don't even premix them, I just add them back during water changes.
__________________
dalto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2017, 05:37 PM   #13
Aquarium Advice Activist
 
murph3400's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 111
Thank you. I think I will try mixing with tap. I will go all tap to start. You may have already mentioned it but aquascape before or after cycled. Looking for diftwood and plants. Still up in the air on substrate
__________________
murph3400 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2017, 07:01 PM   #14
Aquarium Advice Activist
 
ApistoShane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 105
I absolutely love apistos. They are a fish that are somewhat difficult to find the "balance" with. I think there are absurd misconceptions about them out there.

Dalto's recommendations seem great. I have kept around 15 species, and am now keeping 12 species in 14 tanks.

I would also start with Apistogramma cacatuoides, as they come from environments with constantly fluctuating hardness. They are also very hardy if kept in the conditions that Dalto outlined. I have kept and bred a few different species now, but I really love all Apistos. If you can ensure that they get plenty of frozen/live/filler-less prepared foods, start out with good stock initially, and keep their water clean, you should have little issues.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi View Post
Okay besides your opinion on them not needing an established tank, you pretty much said everything I did besides you added the factor of water hardness. Just because you've kept over 30 species of anything doesn't mean a thing if you can't keep them alive.. most apistos I know of live to be 5-7 years old depending specific species. That's either a lot of aquariums and major money or you've kept fish for years and years, some of which you must of had species of before being common in the trade.
I personally have kept apistos in tanks without filters but with a high plant load. In this way, the fish excrete waste, plants use those wastes to grow. Often times, I take a tank, add some sand, a layer of floaters, some driftwood and leaf litter... and I have a suirable habitat for a pair or two of Apistos.


You may have had issues due to hardness. My water is soft, pH ranging from 6.2-6.8 and hardness level at around 150 TDS. Portland tap water baby! All apistos that come into my tanks are acclimated to these conditions, including the blackwater species that are associated with TDS below 10 and pH of at 5.5.

Honestly, the biggest problem is inadequate diet. For that reason, I keep them in species only tanks. Tetras are much too vigorous and eat quickly, so I often do not include them in Apisto tanks (they steal all the food)

Here is one of the males I got from my first Apistogramma spawn ever. This was a picture taken early June, after 3-4 months of growth.



Species I keep now:
Apistogramma iniridae
Apistogramma hongsloi
Apistogramma sp. Totaya
Apistogramma sp. D50
Apistogramma bitaeniata "Rio Jutai"
Apistogramma cf. ortegai
Apistogramma barlowi
Apistogramma sp. Abacaxis

Supposed to receive a few new species very soon...

I keep my favorites and sell off the rest. So far, the top two on my list in terms of quality are Apistogramma hongsloi and Apistogramma iniridae. In terms of choosing favorites, it would be between sp. Abacaxis, sp. D50, or iniridae. All three are pretty, and have awesome behaviors. I love waking up in the morning and seeing my iniridae males flaring at each other... it's a sight to behold.

Good luck! If you have any questions, feel free to PM me, or if you want pictures, just ask!
Shane
__________________
ApistoShane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2017, 03:57 PM   #15
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
dalto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,104
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApistoShane View Post
I keep my favorites and sell off the rest. So far, the top two on my list in terms of quality are Apistogramma hongsloi and Apistogramma iniridae. In terms of choosing favorites, it would be between sp. Abacaxis, sp. D50, or iniridae. All three are pretty, and have awesome behaviors. I love waking up in the morning and seeing my iniridae males flaring at each other... it's a sight to behold.
My favorite was A. baenschi, have you kept them yet?
__________________
dalto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 11:23 AM   #16
Aquarium Advice Activist
 
ApistoShane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 105
Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalto View Post
My favorite was A. baenschi, have you kept them yet?
Not yet...your profile explained it lol.
Actually, never kept a fish in that complex.

Forgot to include:

A. elizabethae "Sao Gabriel"
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	22119467_382291732190105_97923181_o.jpg
Views:	36
Size:	106.5 KB
ID:	304108  
__________________

__________________
ApistoShane is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
app, ram

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off








» Photo Contest Winners







All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.