Bully Boy - The Full Story! You Will Gasp In Disbelief!

[CichliditisExtremitis]

As I've mentioned on a few forums, the sad truth is that we only have two LFS on our island out here in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. Most tropical fish are imported from Taiwan, the Philippines or Singapore...and as a former pet store manager, and aquarium design and maintenance biz owner, I know that a lot of hanky panky goes on in those places...hormones, etc.

Anyway, this LFS had several tanks labeled as "Cichlids". Yep...that was it...no scientific names...not even English names. Being as I only have a four-foot tank which holds 45 gallons of water when empty, I was thinking about getting half a dozen of something simple and hardy, like Zebra Convicts. Then I saw this one "Cichlids" tank on the end of one row which had these pretty blue striped nameless cichlids in it.

I questioned two employees about them, and they were both clueless, but they said that the owner would know when she arrived shortly, being as she made the fish orders.

Of course, while I waited for the owner to arrive, I pointed out to one of the employees that they really needed to provide more info regarding the fish that they sell. I told him that inexperienced aquarists might not mind a tank labeled as "Cichlids", but for someone like me, a serious aquarist who has been in and out of the hobby for some forty years, their approach was very unprofessional, and didn't encourage confidence.

Well, things got worse.

The owner arrived. I had suggested to one of the employees that all the owner had to do was look at her invoice for the previous shipment in order to determine the identity of the fish in which I was interested. I waited a while and then approached the owner who was busy looking at a book.

Are you ready for this one?

I asked her about the fish in question. She pointed to a picture in the book and said that the fish in the end tank were Protomelas Spilonotus Tanzania, and that they would develop the yellow belly as they matured.

Oh yes...I can hear you letting out a gasp of disbelief way over here!

I was equally clueless regarding the identity of the fish, as I found four possible species in the two books that I had carried with me to the store. Yes, I do that!

Anyway, I accepted what she said at face value...that is, until I began inquiring online. GULP!

I've had these fish for two months now, they've grown considerably, and it is quite obvious that they are NOT Protomelas Spilonotus Tanzania, and don't even have the body shape of Protomelas Spilonotus Tanzania, but are in fact like little torpedoes...just like M. Johanni and M. Cyaneorhabdos.

So at $5 each, I've got five fish that may possibly be M. Johanni/M. Cyaneorhabdos hybrids, or maybe M. Johanni/M. Auratus hybrids, or who-knows-what.

That's the story in a nutshell of how I came to acquire Bully Boy and his four tank mates.

BTW, this is NOT the store where I worked almost 20 years ago. I worked at the other one, and we used English and/or scientific names. I strongly believed in educating the patrons of our business regarding the care of their fish.

 

[bmg07]

people are so ........ ignorent

 

[severum mama]

Of course, while I waited for the owner to arrive, I pointed out to one of the employees that they really needed to provide more info regarding the fish that they sell. I told him that inexperienced aquarists might not mind a tank labeled as "Cichlids", but for someone like me, a serious aquarist who has been in and out of the hobby for some forty years, their approach was very unprofessional, and didn't encourage confidence.

The owner arrived. I had suggested to one of the employees that all the owner had to do was look at her invoice for the previous shipment in order to determine the identity of the fish in which I was interested. I waited a while and then approached the owner who was busy looking at a book.

Are you ready for this one?

I asked her about the fish in question. She pointed to a picture in the book and said that the fish in the end tank were Protomelas Spilonotus Tanzania, and that they would develop the yellow belly as they matured.

Oh yes...I can hear you letting out a gasp of disbelief way over here!

I was equally clueless regarding the identity of the fish, as I found four possible species in the two books that I had carried with me to the store. Yes, I do that!

Anyway, I accepted what she said at face value...that is, until I began inquiring online. GULP!

I've had these fish for two months now, they've grown considerably, and it is quite obvious that they are NOT Protomelas Spilonotus Tanzania, and don't even have the body shape of Protomelas Spilonotus Tanzania, but are in fact like little torpedoes...just like M. Johanni and M. Cyaneorhabdos.

So at $5 each, I've got five fish that may possibly be M. Johanni/M. Cyaneorhabdos hybrids, or maybe M. Johanni/M. Auratus hybrids, or who-knows-what.

Perhaps they were labeled "cichlids" because it's a tank full of hybrids and as such, they would not have a species name. For what it's worth, many LFSs order African cichlids from their suppliers as "mixed Africans" because the hybrids are so cheap and colorful, and thus have great appeal to the inexperienced cichlid keeper. As a novice I never considered the ethical ramifications of hybrid Africans, and I wouldn't really expect any other novices to do so either.

Or, it's highly possible that the owner didn't know what the fish was because she didn't order it. I can't tell you how many times the supplier that my friend used to use sent fish to his LFS that we didn't order. My friend is a SW guy primarily, and orders FW mostly to appease customers and not because he takes a huge interest in FW. Why would it be expected that a person knows about every fish in the store simply because he or she is the owner? If she wasn't sent the wrong fish, maybe she has another employee that takes care of ordering FW. That was me in my friend's shop.

I don't get what is so shocking about this story. I see people post complaints about LFS employees' knowledge level and husbandry practices all the time, but the fact is that as aquarists, the responsibility is on us to do the necessary research before purchasing. Furthermore, if you find yourself thinking that a business is unprofessional and you aren't impressed with the way the store is run, why shop there?

 

[CichliditisExtremitis]

Figuring out the parentage of fish is a problem for us fish keepers here on Guam, because all of our fish are imported; usually from the Philippines, Taiwan or Singapore. There are no large-scale fish breeders here on Guam.

At any rate, since making the previous post, I have continued to conduct online research, in order to properly identify my fish once and for all. This has included joining a number of different messageboards, and obtaining feedback from the members of the same.

As you probably know, if you ask a question on such boards, you are going to get a million different opinions; well, maybe not a million, but most definitely a diversity of responses from both self-proclaimed "experts" and novices alike.

From everything that I have been told, and read, it seems that the general consensus is that my fish may not be a pure species, but rather a hybrid of one or more of the following species:

Melanochromis Johanni
Melanochromis Cyaneorhabdos
Pseudotropheus Elongatus
Pseudotropheus Msobo

There may have been one or two other species which have been suggested to me, but I can't remember their names at the moment. Perhaps one of these days I will know for certain exactly what my fish are.

In the mean time, I will continue to try to add more images to the photography section on my board, for those of you who may wish to make your own attempts at identifying my fish.

 

[CichliditisExtremitis]

Perhaps they were labeled "cichlids" because it's a tank full of hybrids and as such, they would not have a species name. For what it's worth, many LFSs order African cichlids from their suppliers as "mixed Africans" because the hybrids are so cheap and colorful, and thus have great appeal to the inexperienced cichlid keeper.

Agreed. In fact, this is something which I have mentioned on other boards that I regularly visit.

Or, it's highly possible that the owner didn't know what the fish was because she didn't order it.

Possibly, although I don't think so in this case. When I spoke to her, she made no mention of not having ordered the fish. She simply showed me a picture in a book and said that this is what it would look like once it matures. Obviously, she was way off-base.

Why would it be expected that a person knows about every fish in the store simply because he or she is the owner? If she wasn't sent the wrong fish, maybe she has another employee that takes care of ordering FW.

Personally, this is what I would expect of any fish store owner. When I managed a pet store some two decades ago, and then ran my own aquarium design and maintenance business, I endeavored to keep myself informed of each species that we sold, so that I could dispense proper information regarding compatibility with other fish, minimum tank size requirements, dietary requirements, etc. I strongly believed in properly educating our customers, because I had a heart for our livestock, and I dreaded selling fish to novices.

The store in question is a relatively small business, and the woman I mentioned is the only one authorized and qualified to make the fish orders.

I don't get what is so shocking about this story. I see people post complaints about LFS employees' knowledge level and husbandry practices all the time, but the fact is that as aquarists, the responsibility is on us to do the necessary research before purchasing.

True indeed, but sometimes there is such a thing as spur-of-the-moment shopping, and even seasoned fishkeepers are not always immune to it.

Furthermore, if you find yourself thinking that a business is unprofessional and you aren't impressed with the way the store is run, why shop there?

As I pointed out in my original post, we only have two LFS on the island of Guam. That doesn't really give us much of a selection.

 

[severum mama]

Possibly, although I don't think so in this case. When I spoke to her, she made no mention of not having ordered the fish. She simply showed me a picture in a book and said that this is what it would look like once it matures. Obviously, she was way off-base.

Why would she feel the need to inform you whether or not she ordered the fish? Like I said, suppliers screw up all the time and send fish that weren't ordered. She was probably doing her best to try and figure out what it was, and she probably thought she had it figured out. I'm not always correct in ID'ing African cichlids even with Ad Konings' books, but that doesn't mean I wasn't a helpful LFS employee. People make mistakes.

Personally, this is what I would expect of any fish store owner. When I managed a pet store some two decades ago, and then ran my own aquarium design and maintenance business, I endeavored to keep myself informed of each species that we sold, so that I could dispense proper information regarding compatibility with other fish, minimum tank size requirements, dietary requirements, etc. I strongly believed in properly educating our customers, because I had a heart for our livestock, and I dreaded selling fish to novices.

Great, but think about how many species are available now vs. 20 years ago. There is no comparison. Indeed, many fish that we see in stores are undescribed species and have no scientific names, and little is known about them. Plecos come to mind immediately, as well as some Victorian cichlids my friend has gotten in at his shop.

True indeed, but sometimes there is such a thing as spur-of-the-moment shopping, and even seasoned fishkeepers are not always immune to it.

Sure, but whose fault is that? Again, as aquarists we are the ones who are responsible for the upkeep of animals that we take into our care, and we are the ones who create and manipulate their environment. Thus, it is our responsibility to research and make informed purchases. I would never rely on the proprietor of a shop or its employees for this information. Such impulse buys rarely seem to turn out well, and there are a plethora of threads on this forum and others that suggest this is true.

As I pointed out in my original post, we only have two LFS on the island of Guam. That doesn't really give us much of a selection.

Ok, so are there no local aquarium clubs or local breeders? Anyone who would ship from Aquabid?

 

[CichliditisExtremitis]

Severum Mama, you sound very much like someone who is still deeply involved in the fish business...and I mean from the commercial end of it, and not just from the hobbyist end of it. As such, I suspect that you are quite rooted in your position, and that we will never fully see eye-to-eye regarding this issue.

 

[HN1]

CE- I've never been involved in the commercial side of the aquatics business other than breeding and wholesale and I must say this.... The blaming of the shops, their employees, owners, etc. gets very old to me. Have I ever purchased a fish on the spur of the moment? Yes, absolutely. Do I blame anyone besides myself for that choice? No. Did I accept responsibility and do whatever I could to provide a good environment and try to learn all I could? Yes.

It sounds like you're in a similar position, but still trying to blame others. Posting (and linking this thread) in the "Ignorent people" thread to me displays that you still do not want to accept full responsibility for your actions and want maximum exposure to your thread. By doing so you are perpetuating the LFS / store bashing that is FAR too prevelant online these days IMHO.

*off soap box*

 

[severum mama]

I'm not involved whatsoever in the commercial end of the fish business. I just happen to have somewhat recent experience in the way things work. I'm no industry insider and no longer have any ties to my friend's store, as I have moved out of state. You can believe what you want, but I'm merely a serious hobbyist on the FW and SW side of things that likes to talk fish. I've been a member of this board and others for several years and I can't even begin to tell you how many threads I've run across in which people blame others for ill-informed, poorly-researched purchases. It simply gets tiresome after a while.

 

[CichliditisExtremitis]

HN1 and Severum Mama, believe me, I do take responsibility for my actions, and I likewise provide my fish with the best home that I can possibly afford, given my personal economic situation.

However, at the same time, while I act responsibly with the livestock that I purchase, I am not quite as forgiving as you both seem to be when it comes to irresponsible and ill-informed LFS owners and employees, having been on both sides of the business for a number of years.

Severum Mama, my previous comment was only an observation based on the tone of your comments. It was not meant to be taken as a slam against you by any means. We are all in this for the joy of the hobby.

HN1, I am perpetuating nothing. I merely shared a truthful story, fact for fact, as it occurred in my personal life only two months ago. Aquarium hobbyists need to be made aware of the fact that not all LFS owners and employees can be counted on for their expertise, and that is precisely what my story demonstrates.

If you, Severum Mama, or anyone else tires of reading such accounts, then simply desist in reading them. The truth is what it is, and trying to suppress it, or bashing the poster, won't change it.

That is all that I have to say regarding this issue.

 

[severum mama]

Apparently we see different truths. I'm agreeing to disagree and bowing out of this thread. Good luck and may future research serve you well.

 

[HN1]

HN1, I am perpetuating nothing. I merely shared a truthful story, fact for fact, as it occurred in my personal life only two months ago. Aquarium hobbyists need to be made aware of the fact that not all LFS owners and employees can be counted on for their expertise, and that is precisely what my story demonstrates.

If you, Severum Mama, or anyone else tires of reading such accounts, then simply desist in reading them. The truth is what it is, and trying to suppress it, or bashing the poster, won't change it.

That is all that I have to say regarding this issue.

You are exactly right that not all LFS employees and owners or ALL of any group you want to identify can be trusted. Buyer beware comes to mind. My point and I apologize if I failed to make it, is that the responsible people are the ones that find themselves on forums and doing research. What percentage of say Pacu owners ever make it far enough into the hobby to find a forum? The responsibility must be shared between the LFS and the aquarist. Your target audience IMO should be the LFS employees and owners themselves. If you want change, starting there would make the most sense to me. The audience here is already past the point of asking themselves the questions that they may receive bad information to. I'm not trying to suppress, bash, or do anything besides state my opinion which I have as much right to as you do to linking your threads multiple times and creating a blog. We all have a right to share our opinions. No requirement for you to agree with them. Let's have an open discussion and try not to take things personally huh?

 

[sieski]

Perhaps they were labeled "cichlids" because it's a tank full of hybrids and as such, they would not have a species name. For what it's worth, many LFSs order African cichlids from their suppliers as "mixed Africans" because the hybrids are so cheap and colorful, and thus have great appeal to the inexperienced cichlid keeper. As a novice I never considered the ethical ramifications of hybrid Africans, and I wouldn't really expect any other novices to do so either.

Or, it's highly possible that the owner didn't know what the fish was because she didn't order it. I can't tell you how many times the supplier that my friend used to use sent fish to his LFS that we didn't order. My friend is a SW guy primarily, and orders FW mostly to appease customers and not because he takes a huge interest in FW. Why would it be expected that a person knows about every fish in the store simply because he or she is the owner? If she wasn't sent the wrong fish, maybe she has another employee that takes care of ordering FW. That was me in my friend's shop.

I don't get what is so shocking about this story. I see people post complaints about LFS employees' knowledge level and husbandry practices all the time, but the fact is that as aquarists, the responsibility is on us to do the necessary research before purchasing. Furthermore, if you find yourself thinking that a business is unprofessional and you aren't impressed with the way the store is run, why shop there?

Whats SHOCKING is she didn't have a clue what it was then gave info and/or carried on selling it.

 

[CichliditisExtremitis]

Whats SHOCKING is she didn't have a clue what it was then gave info and/or carried on selling it.

Precisely. What she did was unethical and immoral. Her goal was to make a sale, so she picked out one of the prettiest fish in the book that she could find to impress me. This was unnecessary, as I had already decided to purchase the fish. They were in the bags, and on the counter. If she -- and her two employees -- honestly didn't know what species the fish were, because they had purchased a mixed bag of African cichlids, or due to some other reason, then she should have simply told me that she wasn't certain regarding the fishs' identity. Instead, she gave me false information -- based on a mere guess -- which has since left me with a bad impression of the store.

 

[HN1]

You can be sure of something and still end up being wrong. It happens. Especially when identifying fish and inverts. Something that needs to be remembered here is that there are NEW and undescribed species coming into the hobby every year. She may have found the best match and thought she had it. To make a statement that she was unethical and immoral is going a bit far IMO. I'm human and make mistakes... how about you?

 

[WhiteDevil]

Gotta live with your choices, in all aspects of life.


I try to blame the person in the mirror the most.

 

[Sicklid]

gotta live with your choices, in all aspects of life.


I try to blame the person in the mirror the most.

deep...

 

[spoonman]

I have bought a few fish now that the LFS said were one thing when I know they were another. That is why we do our research when we see a fish in the store, then go back and buy after we find out for sure what it is and whether we want it or not.