Well I was wondering what your guys/gals opinion about hybrids were? Like me I don't believe hybrids are bad and I'm all for selling healthy fish but I do understand the health issue that hybrids face; saying that, I would buy quality hybrids but if I see issues with them I tend to avoid them.
Hybrids
- Thread starter RAH
- Start date
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HUKIT
Aquarium Advice Addict
I'll save you some time:
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f100/hybridizing-thoughts-and-should-i-208417.html
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f100/hybridizing-thoughts-and-should-i-208417.html
Well..... That was answered faster than expected lol thanks HUKIT for the link.
5x5
Aquarium Advice FINatic
RAH said:
Yes, the problem is that they often do make it back into the gene pool, even when that is not the original intention.
It's one of those things that typically produces more bad than good. I'll personally stay as far away from hybrids as possible.
HUKIT
Aquarium Advice Addict
If you were diligent I'd agree with your statement but since I don't know you personally I agree with 5x5. I'm a purist and try to keep only wild caught for first generation fish as this helps to keep the ever so diluted gene pool a little cleaner, and with 2500 known species of cichlids I can't believe people can't find ONE they like without making swimming monstrosities.
Well I don't keep hybrids probaly never will. But i'm like you I prefer only wild caught or if I do buy from a breeder they will have to meet certain criteria.
HUKIT
Aquarium Advice Addict
Yes I've ordered from Gage in the past, he's in my top 3 go to places for fish.
What's your other two then?
HUKIT
Aquarium Advice Addict
CICHLIDSOFTHEAMERICAS.COM
Tangled Up in Cichlids
Although Rapps doesn't seem to be offering the same amount of wild caught and first gens as he was a few years ago, this could be wrong but that's the impression I get lately.
Wyomingite
Aquarium Advice Freak
I used to be 100% of the same mind as HUKIT. I still will not buy or breed hybrid cichlids. But is breeding flowerhorns or parrots really any different than breeding aquarium strain platies, swordtails or mollies? What 'bout the aquarium strain red devils in the hobby that often have as much Amphilophus citrinellus in their ancestry as A. labiatus? Convict cichlids are another example of a highly domesticated species with little record of the species/local variants used in the ancestry of aquarium strains. What 'bout oscars? Astronotus is probly overdue for a revision considering the breadth of the range of the two species in the genus and the geographical variation of many of those populations. When that happens, what then of the ancestry of the beloved oscar? Are they no longer oscars if we decide that their ancestory included multiple species? Many people get their start in cichlids with these aquarium strain fish. I know few people who have not enjoyed or even still enjoy a tank of bright livebearers, most of which are hybrid aquarium strains. Why are livebearers different than cichlids?
A buddy of mine and I were chattin' one night and he told me I was a hypocrite. When I got to thinkin' 'bout it, I couldn't argue. New strains of aquarium raised hybrids have been bred and become established in the hobby for decades. So why should I be so adamant against cichlid hybrids? The answer: cichlids are dear to my heart and in my opinion are perfect the way they are. As has been pointed out, there are so many species I see no reason why someone can't find a species or two that appeal to them without genetic manipulation.
That is naive. I can't stem the human appetite for new and exciting, pretty, or unique. The reality is that intentional hybridization in cichlids to create aquarium strains is here to stay, whether I like it or not. Some species hybridize in the wild and many will readily hybridize in an aquarium. IME, the hardcore "hybrids are abominations of nature that should not be tolerated" (my personal stance for years) attitude is doomed to failure. Too many people enjoy parrots and flowerhorns, and have a different appreciation of beauty than I do. Too many people fail to perceive the danger to the viability of pure-strain species in the hobby, or in some case to the survival of a species period (extinct-in-the-wild Victorians come immediately to mind here).
Education of hobbyists is going to be the key to preserving pure-strain genotypes in cichlid species; teaching people the value of natural fish and teaching them the importance of not contaminating gene pools by selling hybrid fish as pure-bred. A daunting task, no doubt. But after years of preaching that hybrids are an affront to nature and have no place in the hobby, I've found I have much more success getting through to people with a far different approach. Hybrid cichlids aren't my thing, but I have accepted they do have their place in the hobby. Fact is, people shut me down when I take the militant approach. When I explain the uniqueness of the parent species the hybrids came from and the importance of clearly identifying hybrids as such so that they don't contaminate gene pools, when I explain the importance of not passing off fry as something other than they are, when I attempt to be informative rather than condescending, I acheive more success than when I just flat out say, "Hybrids are _______!" (insert wrong, bad, evil or any other negative word).
WYite
A buddy of mine and I were chattin' one night and he told me I was a hypocrite. When I got to thinkin' 'bout it, I couldn't argue. New strains of aquarium raised hybrids have been bred and become established in the hobby for decades. So why should I be so adamant against cichlid hybrids? The answer: cichlids are dear to my heart and in my opinion are perfect the way they are. As has been pointed out, there are so many species I see no reason why someone can't find a species or two that appeal to them without genetic manipulation.
That is naive. I can't stem the human appetite for new and exciting, pretty, or unique. The reality is that intentional hybridization in cichlids to create aquarium strains is here to stay, whether I like it or not. Some species hybridize in the wild and many will readily hybridize in an aquarium. IME, the hardcore "hybrids are abominations of nature that should not be tolerated" (my personal stance for years) attitude is doomed to failure. Too many people enjoy parrots and flowerhorns, and have a different appreciation of beauty than I do. Too many people fail to perceive the danger to the viability of pure-strain species in the hobby, or in some case to the survival of a species period (extinct-in-the-wild Victorians come immediately to mind here).
Education of hobbyists is going to be the key to preserving pure-strain genotypes in cichlid species; teaching people the value of natural fish and teaching them the importance of not contaminating gene pools by selling hybrid fish as pure-bred. A daunting task, no doubt. But after years of preaching that hybrids are an affront to nature and have no place in the hobby, I've found I have much more success getting through to people with a far different approach. Hybrid cichlids aren't my thing, but I have accepted they do have their place in the hobby. Fact is, people shut me down when I take the militant approach. When I explain the uniqueness of the parent species the hybrids came from and the importance of clearly identifying hybrids as such so that they don't contaminate gene pools, when I explain the importance of not passing off fry as something other than they are, when I attempt to be informative rather than condescending, I acheive more success than when I just flat out say, "Hybrids are _______!" (insert wrong, bad, evil or any other negative word).
WYite
Just my 2 cents.. I'm not big on hybrids and don't go looking for them but when my buddy had a spawn of ob peacocks I had to get a dom male. I'll never allow his spawns to leave my home but I did help the demand by buying mine so I guess I'm a bit on the fence about it. Obviously I'd like the gene pool to stay clean and be able to own my ob peacock but you'll always have others that just don't care.
VERY well said! I couldn't agree more.
Cichlid-dude
Aquarium Advice Addict
- Joined
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I dont buy hybrids, ive had cichlids cross breed and i kept the fry, but wouldnt let them leave my house. I do not beleive they should be sold at all, but if someone wants to keep hybrids then go for it, just dont go around selling them to fish stores and others. IMO if a fish cross breeds those fry should have the right to live. Let nature take its course in your tank if you will, but just make sure those fish are never sold period.
DragonFish71
Great white snark
Personally, if I find hybrid fry in one of my tanks, I let the other fish eat them. Might sound cruel but I'm not about to let them enter the gene pool in the trading around I do with my LFS and friends.
Wyomingite
Aquarium Advice Freak
Thank you, milady.
I realized that ranting and raving, accusing folks of creating monstrosities and playing "god" only shuts down their reception to my message. Lack of respect and condemnation on that level only breeds contempt in return. As I said, flowerhorns, parrots, and OB peacocks are here to stay, as well as glo-convicts and glo-angels. Let's not forget dozens of hybrids that get inadvertently bred in aquarists tanks in any given year. It's likely only a matter of time before a new, fixed hybrid cichlid strain is introduced to the public.
If avid cichlidophiles like myself, who've been in the hobby for 25+ years, are going to save the genetic purity of our favorites, we won't do it by insulting and alienating folks. We have to accept hybrid cichlids and their fans are now part of the hobby and educate people who are fans of these hybrids about the negative affects of distributing 'em at random, explain why it is important they clearly delineate 'em as hybrids if they give 'em away/sell 'em, and encourage that they keep the hybrids through the life span of the fish or humanely euthanize 'em rather than distributing 'em at all. In the end, this very well may include teaching these hobbyists how to responsibly market their fish if they insist on doing so. It isn't about liking or agreeing with the practice; it's about accepting changes that have occurred in our hobby and addressing them in a practical, constructive manner that achieves the desired results. It's about bringing that aspect of the cichlid hobby into the fold.
It's been a very hard road to travel, comin' to this realization. Two years ago I'da been rantin' and ravin' with the best. I'd much rather be able to say, "I'm right, yer wrong" and have people listen to what I say is best. Look where that has gotten us die hards in the past 15 or so years since the first parrot cichlids showed up on the market. They're still here, with more fixed hybrid strains to boot, and rantin' 'til I'm blue in the face has not turned one soul away from enjoyin' 'em. I had a few sleepless night over it, I'm sure not a soul I ranted at ever lost a minute.
I hafta change, learn new ways to solve problems. Hopefully some other folks will stop and think 'bout it and recognize the same. I remember seein' something where the ACA is lookin' at havin' an ornamental cichlid category this year at the convention. Great idea. Inclusion and participation is a great way to get people to understand and empathize with yer position.
WYite
HUKIT
Aquarium Advice Addict
Education is the key to keeping strains pure so while its fine to say I used to be anti-hybrid but now why bother, it simply boils down to the original point if we allow hybrids to enter and dilute the gene then the Cichlid trade will change in a negative way for all future generations.
I've been in this hobby probably as long as you and I've seems dozens of genus's of fish destroyed, so to say that it's ok it happens in nature is wrong, nature takes care of abominations in the wild as they are quickly dispatched their parents and other fish. I've had friends import trade that have gone on 50-60 collection trips and not one found a hybrid, so unless we are searching for the mythical hybrid Bigfoot...aquariums are not nature!
I pride myself on collecting fish that are on the CARES list and distributing them to members of my club and community, so yes I take offense when someone who is simply out to make a buck or just to show off their "Frankenstein" Cichlid.
You can argue your live and let live point of view all you want but among serious Cichlid keepers I assue you'll be in the small minority.
Greater Chicago Cichlid Association is one of the largest in the county and does not allow hybrids of any sort in club auctions or swaps, why? To keep abominations such as those out of the ignorant publics hands and to ensure the purity of our hobby for their grandchildren. I also consider the ACA ruling to be different as their members are among the highest educated aquarist on the planet, I've been to ACA conventions and Ive rarely encountered a individual who just wandered off the street to attend.
I've been in this hobby probably as long as you and I've seems dozens of genus's of fish destroyed, so to say that it's ok it happens in nature is wrong, nature takes care of abominations in the wild as they are quickly dispatched their parents and other fish. I've had friends import trade that have gone on 50-60 collection trips and not one found a hybrid, so unless we are searching for the mythical hybrid Bigfoot...aquariums are not nature!
I pride myself on collecting fish that are on the CARES list and distributing them to members of my club and community, so yes I take offense when someone who is simply out to make a buck or just to show off their "Frankenstein" Cichlid.
You can argue your live and let live point of view all you want but among serious Cichlid keepers I assue you'll be in the small minority.
Greater Chicago Cichlid Association is one of the largest in the county and does not allow hybrids of any sort in club auctions or swaps, why? To keep abominations such as those out of the ignorant publics hands and to ensure the purity of our hobby for their grandchildren. I also consider the ACA ruling to be different as their members are among the highest educated aquarist on the planet, I've been to ACA conventions and Ive rarely encountered a individual who just wandered off the street to attend.
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rotorhead22
Aquarium Advice Freak
Here is an interesting article and some background about the Devil's Hole Pupfush, an endangered species where hybridization is being considered to save it.
http://derdriu.hubpages.com/hub/Devils-Hole-Pupfish-Cyprinodon-diabolis
http://derdriu.hubpages.com/hub/Devils-Hole-Pupfish-Cyprinodon-diabolis
Should we let this beautiful fish become extinct or should we play God and save it?
-Rotorhead
http://derdriu.hubpages.com/hub/Devils-Hole-Pupfish-Cyprinodon-diabolis
http://derdriu.hubpages.com/hub/Devils-Hole-Pupfish-Cyprinodon-diabolis
Should we let this beautiful fish become extinct or should we play God and save it?
-Rotorhead
Wyomingite
Aquarium Advice Freak
I never said why bother. I said in order to preserve the strains we care about we need to change tactics. We need to educate people to keep hybrids separate, to deal with hybrids in a responsible manner. Hybrids are here, so what are we doin' 'bout it besides complaining and whining? Hybrids are another unique aspect of the cichlid hobby whether they are officially recognized by the ACA, the GCCA, or any other cichlid association. Just as domesticated aquarium strains of livebearers are recognized by the ALA, those who prefer those domestic strain/hybrid cichlids need to start being included. Once included, they can be taught to understand the issues, and once they understand, they will empathize. If purists like you and I continue to be snobs, we will continue to drive away these folks and further endanger pure lines.
First of all, the edition I have of Ad Koning's Book of Cichlids and All the Other Fish of Lake Malawi has pictures of adult hybrid Maylandia greshakei/M. zebra, which I remember off the top of my head, and probly others if I went through it. All natural hybrids are not removed immediately from the wild, some do survive, reproduce and alter the next generation. You want another example? I spent my undergrad years studying mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus)/ white tail deer (O. virginianus) hybrids in the southern Platte River basin of Wyoming.
That aside, with the exception of the severely altered Lake Victoria ecosystem, hybridization is not an issue in most ecosystems. And in properly kept aquariums, hybrids are not generally an issue, either. Even in the aquarium, most fish prefer same-species mates. In 28 years, I have never had a hybrid mating of any cichlid, and I've had over 60 species of cichlids spawn for me, around 40 of those mbuna, at one time or another. I have intentionally tried to breed hybrids, even the aforementioned zebra/greshakei hybrid, and was unable. There is plenty of literature on the topic in scientific journals, and even in aquarium settings most fish prefer same species mates.
I never stated that an aquarium was nature, and the confines of an aquarium do create circumstances favorable to hybrids. And, BTW, the flippancy of the Bigfoot comment really does not do ya credit.
And well you should, I'd like to get a hold of several species on the list myself.
As for the whole "Frankenfish" argument", you make my entire argument. That kind of self-righteous indignation, the air of superiority and condescension that springs from your statement, is why we have trouble getting through to people, why they turn a deaf ear. They don't hear the consequences of their actions, they hear a bunch of static, they hear they are being put down, they hear they are being belittled and considered as less than human, as inferior beings, they hear that they don't count. That attitude, being perceived as cichlid snobs, is more damaging than I ever realized.
You are putting words in my mouth by saying I have a live and let live philosophy. That never came out, I said new ways of addressing the issue must be found, because preaching hasn't and isn't working. I've merely realized berating people is useless. Ya catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
As for the implication I am not a serious cichlid keeper, c'mon HUKIT. Blatant use of an appeal to emotion, an erroneous logical strategy in any debate. Ya imply that my devotion to the cichlid hobby and the preservation of cichlids is less than yours simply because of your standards, and by belittling me by saying I don't meet your standards. You've attempted to diminish my own position by questioning my qualifications, devotion and abilities and by building yourself up as the authority. All yer doing is spotlighting yer own refusal to accept change. I already stated this isn't 'bout bein' right or wrong. This is 'bout accepting the changes that have occurred and finding solutions in a changed hobby.
At the same time yer setting yerself up in a position to "poison the well", setting yerself up to refer back to this to say,"Look at me, that makes me right." Bottom line this whole paragraph is irrelevant to the argument.
These abominations are already in the public's hands and we are not going to keep them out or remove them from there! What are you doing to change that ignorant public? Are you just turning your back on those who ignore you and letting them go they're own way, or are you looking at how you can increase their interest beyond hybrids? In spite of all the good yer doing for the hobby, if one person turns his/her back for every one that you convince, you have accomplished nothing. All the good you've done for the purpose of preserving the genetically pure cichlids for our grandchildren is will be countered by the actions of the person you've alienated, and that person has walked away, likely out of the reach for a long time. We hafta touch these people when the opportunity arises.
Your whole position is built on a foundation of another fallacy of logic, invincible ignorance. Every post I've read by you on this forum has been built on the "Hybrids are Wrong" platform. It's not about whether they are wrong or right. It's about the fact that hybrids are here, period, they are here to stay, and they are only going to get worse if we continue down the same road in trying to mitigate the issue they create. We are not going to make them go away, as much as I hate parrots and those freakin' OB zebras. Ranting and raving and saying yer wrong hasn't and isn't gonna accomplish it. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. After all these years, when is the insanity gonna stop on the part of cichlid purists? When more people realize this and start addressing the issue in a creative fashion, maybe us cichlidophiles will get somewhere. Until then we'll keep losin' ground. Believe it or not, HUKIT, I'm on yer side. I've just seen the light...
WYite
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