Questions on African Cichlids, Just got my first fish

[dmac]

Hi,

I have a 30 Gallon Tall new aquarium (been running about 72 hours and all appears stable), so today I got things started.

I decided on African Cichlids......I really liked the colors they come in and I found some baby ones of the following:

1 Cobalt Blue Maylandia Zebra (stripes on mine are not very pronounced, similar to this photo)
http://members.boo.net/~lianos/fish/zebra1.jpg

1 Red (Maylandia?)Zebra
http://www.african-cichlid.com/EstheraeM600.jpg

1 Electric Yellow Labidochromis Caeruleus
http://www.ciklidi.org/modules/xoopsgallery/cache/albums/album88/Labidochromis_caeruleus_muz.jpg

They were like $3 each, so I bought 3 to start things off. I have the chemicals where I believe to be stable, and the current temperature is 76 degrees. the store sign said 72-82 for cichlids...I'm going to do some more reading on them, but I want your advice here:

1)What is the environment you guys would reccomend for them? Temperature, chemical levels, etc...

2)Can I mix ANY other type of fish other than African Cichlids later on? (specifically specialty like algae eaters, catfish, snails, anything??) Can I mix any South American Cichlids with the africans, provided they have a smaller max size?

3)What is the largest size fish that a 30 gallon tall tank should have?

4)How often do I feed them? The person at the pet store said once per day, the package of Cichlid flakes says small meals multiple times a day.

5)Any other advice or comments on Cichlids?


thanks in advance!

Dave

 

[sir_dudeguy]

i'm not sure on what fish you could put with them, but i'd only keep other af. cichlids w/them, as cichlids are aggressive and would prolly kill other fish..

but the problem i see is that you did not cycle this tank. do a search on here for cycling if you're not sure what it is...it usually takes about 4 weeks or so before you should put fihs in. others will say that they have put fish in right away, and had no problems...so have i actualy, with my very first tank and had no problems, but now that i've head many more tanks, i think its very bad to not cycle

 

[shawmutt]

What is the environment you guys would reccomend for them? Temperature, chemical levels, etc...

A bigger tank. You will run into problems with them as they mature. They are very territorial fish that need a lot of space.

I tried Africans in a 30 gallon long, and all I'm left with is "princess", the fish that systematically killed off all the others. She is now in a 10 gallon tank all by herself.

You may want to return these, and have a look at the S.A. cichlids instead. A lot of species of new world cichlids will thrive in a 30 gallon.

 

[dmac]

Hi,

I read about the cycling, but most other advice I read online said waiting two weeks or more was a waste because no live animals in the tank to produce any beneficial bacteria to actually create a cycle......The advice I read and was told was to add some cheap "starter" fish to get the cycle going and then add more fish several weeks later.

I also was told that the SA cichlids tended to be slightly larger than the african ones at full size.

The fish I bought have a max size of 3".

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I do not recommend placing any African Cichlids in a tank smaller than 55 gal with the exception of shell dwellers from Lake Tang. Most likely you have three Malawi Mbuna since they are the most common sold. You need to know exactly which type of Africans you have. The agresiveness varies greatly between each type of African. For example, labs are pretty docile whereas the Auratus is the most aggressive. I recommend returning them to the lfs until the tank is cycled and chose a more appropriate fish.

To answer your questions, I keep our African tanks around 78 degrees. The only thing that you need to worry about in regards to chemical levels is to make sure Ammonia and Nitrites are 0 and Nitrates are below 30. The pH level does not matter that much, but I recommend a level between 7.8 to 8.4.

I do not recommend mixing Aricans with non-Arficans with the exception of Plecos. They will eat any peaceful or slow moving fish. They also like to have a snack of snails and shrimp.

I wouldn't keep a fish that grows over a few inches in a 30 gal tank. But I am also a big supporter of giving fish more room than they need. Ie: I wouldn't put a betta in anything less than a 5 gal filtered and heated talk.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

Check out the following two articles to learn about cycling without fish. It is easier, safer, and faster than cycling with fish.

Fishless cycle It says saltwater but the same applies for Freshwater
Nitrogen cycle

I prefer the pure ammonia method over the decaying shrimp or fish food.

 

[mentallylost]

I must say that I am saddened and disappointed that you would consider African Cichlids as some cheap starter fish.

I agree with Fishyfanatic on the fishless cycle. For your fishes sake do it! I can almost guarantee that your fish will most likely die. Is it kind of harsh to say that? Yes. But for most of us who have tried to start a tank with out cycling it first, we can tell you that we found out the hard way. Although we may not like to admit to it. I did it too. I highly recommend adding a water treatment such as Prime to help condition it.

Without knowing what kind of cichlids that you have, we can not accurately recommend what kind of an environment to give them. Some need rocks, some need open sand, some need caves, etc. etc. etc. Try and take some pics and post them, so we can help with the environment. Or head on back to the LFS and look on the tank for the names of them. I prefer the pics.

And not all African Cichlids stay small. I have a male Frontosa who will max out at about 15 inches long. And the female will hit 12 inches.

 

[dmac]

Thanks for the replies.

I am stopping in the LFS tomorrow to pick up some fertilizer for my plants, and will also get the exact name of the cichlids. I am certain these only grow to about 3-4" tops as the sign stated that. Unless the sign was wrong...........The only reason I considered the 3 I bought starter fish was because I paid $3 for them, so I am not out an arm and a leg if they don't make it. I hope that doesn't sound too harsh to some of you, but thats the way I feel about it.

In watching the fish, they seem to prefer to hang out in the plants or hiding among the rocks at the bottom...They also like to swim up and down looking at themselves in the glass reflection....I'm not sure if thats typical behavior of my fish or if its just because they are not used to the new environment yet.

 

[Marc118]

Bummer for the fish....

 

[DeFeKt]

it is more then possible to keep these fish happy and healthy, provided you don't add to much more to the environment in the sense of living creatures.
knowing exactly what the fish are would help alot, sounds like some dwarf mbuna.

1)temp you've got the right idea,
ph 7.6+ use sand, cc limestone etc, to buffer it to the right levels, these will take care of your water hardness as well..(look into water hardness)
2)you can keep bristlenose and the likes successfully with some africans but i wouldn't recommend it in that size tank. SA's require totally different parameters and something will most likely die.
3)i'd only keep 3 max 4 in a 30gal for display purposes only. preferably all males, if you eliminate the females the males will not desire to fight for her. in most cases the males are the most colourful anyway.
4) feed as much as they require, you will soon figure a routine, don't feed them so much that they get fat and bloated and aren't hungry, and also don't feed them not enough that they start getting skinny and looking undernourished.
they will always beg for food, so resist the urge to overfeed them. by overfeeding you will fight water quality and forever have problems.
5)Enjoy them and spend time with them, they are smarter then you think, and with the right attention and treatment they will reward you with miraculous colouring and behaviour.

hth

Matt.

 

[Andyvette]

it is more then possible to keep these fish happy and healthy, provided you don't add to much more to the environment in the sense of living creatures.
knowing exactly what the fish are would help alot, sounds like some dwarf mbuna.

1)temp you've got the right idea,
ph 7.6+ use sand, cc limestone etc, to buffer it to the right levels, these will take care of your water hardness as well..(look into water hardness)
2)you can keep bristlenose and the likes successfully with some africans but i wouldn't recommend it in that size tank. SA's require totally different parameters and something will most likely die.
3)i'd only keep 3 max 4 in a 30gal for display purposes only. preferably all males, if you eliminate the females the males will not desire to fight for her. in most cases the males are the most colourful anyway.
4) feed as much as they require, you will soon figure a routine, don't feed them so much that they get fat and bloated and aren't hungry, and also don't feed them not enough that they start getting skinny and looking undernourished.
they will always beg for food, so resist the urge to overfeed them. by overfeeding you will fight water quality and forever have problems.
5)Enjoy them and spend time with them, they are smarter then you think, and with the right attention and treatment they will reward you with miraculous colouring and behaviour.

hth

Matt.

Matt aka DeFeKt gave you the perfect advice. Try to mimic the african's natural environment with limestone to create good hardness, plus it looks cool. Some bad news, is that it is harder to keep your plants alive with excessively hard water, so find a happy medium.

My advice would be, next time, do your research on the fish. There are TONS of small New World Cichlids that stay small and would do great in a 30 gallon (for example, rams, which are colorful and a hoot to watch. Plus they are community fish, and get along with practically anything, and stay 2"). Also, you should try to mimic their environment before you put fish in the tank. The good news that we just found out is that you have live plants. This eases the fish's pain a little in that it absorbs some of the poisons that the fish let off (Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate), so your fish's lungs will be burnt a little less. With that being said, these "disposable" African Cichlids of yours, I would return to the store, and get a credit.
Wait a few weeks, with some ammonia or dead shrimp in the tank, and then stock up slowly from there. TRUST me... you will be more successful, and will most likely stick to the hobby longer. When you are unsuccessful, you quit, and it is a waste of time, money, and the fish. So, to ensure success, make it easy on the fish, as they will then live. As far as the "$3" comment. No difference between a $600 lab from a breeder and a $100 lab from an adoption agency. I know we eat fish, but we eat pigs too, and if you had a pot-bellied, you wouldnt slice him up and have breakfast. These are pets

You are on the right track, and thankfully, you joined AA (Welcome BTW). We will try to give you the best advice possible, and hopefully, you will have a successful tank. So my advice- Please, take back the fish, start a fishless cycle, research what you want during that time, and then you can stock your tank fully and it will be happier and prettier than you can imagine.

Andy

 

[Fishyfanatic]

Most Malawi Mbuna max out at around 3 to 4 inches. If you don't have the exact names, could you describe them?

Do you plan on upgrading the tank as they grow? Fry or juvis would be fine in a 30 gal, but in the long run, it's not sufficient. They are far too active and aggressive.

 

[dmac]

Thanks for all the replies again. I am on my way now to store and am stopping in the LFS to get some supplies, will report back shortly with the exact breed I got.


Its about 24 hours later and they are doing well, swimming actively all around and eating when I feed them. I just did another water test and I feel I need to increase hardness a bit, is there a chemical for that? Should I also get the "prime" to kick start the cycle or will that kill my fish?

Either way, I'm going to take my chances with these fish. I'm not returning them.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

If you don't want to return them, that's your choice. Do you plan on upgrading the tank size as they grow? During the cycle (the next 6 weeks) test frequently with a liquid reagent test kit to make sure the ammonia and nitrite readings do not reach deadly levels.

What is the exact hardness reading? Are you using test strips or a liquid reagent kit? Do not use chemicals to increase this level. Crushed coral in the filter will do the trick.

Prime is not a cycle starter. It is a dechlorinator. Look for Bio-Spira. It is the only product that has been known to jump start a cycle. Other products such as "Cycle" do not work.

 

[dmac]

Ok, If I add Bio-Spira will it kill the current fish?

Also, I am currently using test strips.

Hardess is listed as "soft" at 75ppm. I read that cichlids like hard water. Where in my filter do I add the crushed coral? I have a HOB emperor.

also, Alkalinity is about 7.8 pH. Do I need to increase that for Cichlids?

Nitrate and Nitrite are currently registering as 0.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

No, the Bio-Spira will aid in cycling the tank. But make sure it stays cold. It must be refrigerated at all times or the bacteria will die. So if you pick some up, go straight home and add it to the tank.

I wouldn't rely too much on the strips. They are known for being inaccurate. When you go to the lfs, take a water sample and have them test the water for Ammonia, pH, and hardness. Ask for the specific values and write them down. Most of the time they will say "they are fine". But what they consider "fine" and what really is "fine" are two different things. While you are at the lfs, look for a test kit such as the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Freshwater Master Test Kit. They are the best IMO. If you want to keep track of the hardness levels, also get the AP GH and KH kit.

 

[dmac]

On my way now, I'll report back.

Thanks!


Ok, I just stopped at the store. The other day I bought babies from an "assorted african cichlid mix pseudotropheus spp" it says on sign, but matching them up to the "grown up" counterparts in other tanks, I have:

1 Cobalt Blue Maylandia Zebra (stripes on mine are not very pronounced, similar to this photo)
http://members.boo.net/~lianos/fish/zebra1.jpg

1 Red (Maylandia?)Zebra
http://www.african-cichlid.com/EstheraeM600.jpg

1 Electric Yellow Labidochromis Caeruleus
http://www.ciklidi.org/modules/xoopsgallery/cache/albums/album88/Labidochromis_caeruleus_muz.jpg


I did confirm, the sign said they will grow to a max of 4.5"
Also, they are currently very small, the Blue Zebra is about 1-1.5", the Red Zebra is about 1", and the Yellow Caeruleus is .5"

going by the formula of 1" per gallon on tropicals is it a stretch to try and keep 6 or 7 of these together in total in the 30 gallon tank? Assuming they survive, there is no guarentee they'll actually get that big, 4.5" right?

The store did not have Bio-spira, so I bought cycle, the guy said it was still a worthwile additive. I also bought some plant fertilizer.

 

[RoK]

going by the formula of 1" per gallon on tropicals is it a stretch to try and keep 6 or 7 of these together in total in the 30 gallon tank? Assuming they survive, there is no guarentee they'll actually get that big, 4.5" right?

The store did not have Bio-spira, so I bought cycle, the guy said it was still a worthwile additive. I also bought some plant fertilizer.

That is just a guideline for people new to the hobby. It is not always a good idea to use that. What you really need to go by is the type of fish, the amount of waste they produce and how aggressive and territorial they are.

It is a very bad idea to try and put 6-7 african cichlids in a 30 gallon. Once they are larger, there will be very limited space for territories. You'll probably end up with 1 or 2 that haven't been killed by the others.
IMO the tank is just too small for such aggressive and moderately large fish.

They will get to that size, as long as the water quality remains in good condition.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

"Cycle" does not work, as I stated in my previous post. Stores try to sell it but it does nothing.

The 1" per gal guideline does not apply to Africans, mainly just community fish. Africans have quite a bit more girth than the average Tetra. Since you are not going to return them, I would limit what you have to the current stock. Do not add any more fish unless you are upgrading to a minimum of 55 gal. Africans are messy fish and will drive your Nitrates up pretty quickly.

I agree with RoK, they will grow to the 4.5" size. Right now our labs are pushing 3.5", Cobalts are already at 4.5" and the Estherae is showing a good 3.75". Mbuna generally always meet their "max" size.

 

[dmac]

ok, well if they get that big, then these will be fine. Perhaps I'll try and add a fourth one and leave it at that.