404 as Sump Pump

[Crawling68]

Well, looks like the sump thing is something im going to have figure on my own. But, has anybody thought of using a Fluval 404 to pump water out of the tank and in to the sump......it flows at 340 gph out? Or am i crazy!

 

[steve-s]

Wouldn't recommend it unless it's used to return the water to the tank. Even then there wouldn't really be enough flow through an overflow (if used) to maintain the syphon. If the water was gravity fed to the sump and then the 404 was used to return the water, that might work. Just be sure nothing is used in the canister to restrict flow.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Crawling68]

I just said overflow as an example. Im talking leave the intake in the main tank, then put the return line into the sump. I just don't like the whole gravity feed-poweroutage-water everywhere thing. If the canister is pumping into the sump, i wouldn't have to worry about that. What do you think.

 

[kidkameleon3]

If you could match the flow rate it would work, but if you left enough room in the sump it would drain until hte overflow slots then stop.Assuming your sump has the room it would be fine

 

[Crawling68]

Well, it puts out 340 gph, if i put a Mag 5 in the sump, it would pump 380 because of the height, then i could turn it down a little to match the 404. My sump is going to be 29X12X13, thats as big its gonna be, i figure about 15 gal.

 

[Bearfan]

Odds that you will get them to match exactly: 1:10000
Odds that it will be a major headache: 2:1
Water all over your floor or a dry sump: Priceless

 

[Biggen]

Odds that you will get them to match exactly: 1:10000
Odds that it will be a major headache: 2:1
Water all over your floor or a dry sump: Priceless

You never run out, do you?

 

[Crawling68]

How do you get an overflow box to match the return, water all over the floor is my major concern.

 

[steve-s]

How do you get an overflow box to match the return, water all over the floor is my major concern.

The overflow will only empty into the sump the amount of water that is pumped into the main tank by the return pump from the sump. Basically if the pump quits, the water from the main tank will only drain until it it gets below the top level of the overflow and then the syphon should break or simpley stop depending on type. If the sump is only operating at ½ full volume, it should be able to hold the extra water without any spills. You would need to do a few tests to determine the best fill line for the sump though.

Having a pump to the sump and a return pump from it would be disasterous as Bearfan pointed out. If there was a problem with one and the other continued, you would definately have a large mess.

Gravity feeds (drilled tanks) to the sump will not cause a mess in the event of a power failure. If the return pump (404) quits, no more water will empty into the sump. The biggest concern with an overflow is that it may lose it's syphon during the outage and once power is regained the return pump will empty the sump into the main. That is why many of us do not recommend "C" type overflows. The Best are "U" type overflows for preventing this kind of issue. You can also drill a hole in the top of the return line just below the water line as a syphon break for the 404 to prevent back syphoning.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Crawling68]

Ok, im understanding more now. That is why i join forums before i do things, to prevent disasters. Now, i want the return to power a SCWD instead of the powerheads, would a mag 9 be too much. What i mean is, having that much flow out of the tank and back in. Should i build a separate, closed-loop sysem for that.

 

[steve-s]

A closed loop would be fine and less concern for you once set up. On a 55 gal tank the pump you would need will depend on how many branch's you work into the plumbing and total head calculation. The 950 GPH should actually be fine but I would suggest an alternate manufacturer since this will be considered an inline rather than submerged pump. The Mag 9 might not fair well long term, they tend to get kinda hot without water circulating around them.

I would actually suggest a Little Giant or Quiet One. Less heat issues and also less head loss with the same basic flow rates.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Crawling68]

Makes sense. What about to and from the sump, whats a good flow rate for a 55.

 

[flamron]

I am working on getting a sump setup on my 55 and I bought a GEN-X Mak 4. I can bet you I will have a lot of flow (~1100GPH at 4ft head).

 

[steve-s]

What about to and from the sump, whats a good flow rate for a 55.

A closed loop and a sump are two completely different things. If you do a closed loop with a high flow rate and just use the sump to store unsightly equipment, I wouldn't worry about the flow from the sump that much as most will be incorporated by the loop. As long as there is enough flow to keep the main tank properly heated I'd say about 5x GPH should work. You could even set the sump up as a refugium of sorts. It really depends on what (if) you do with the closed loop.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Crawling68]

If i put a refugium in the sump, i would definitely want slower flow than 950, as much as i only want to run one pump for all, true. I would think that would be kind of chaotic in the fuge.

 

[steve-s]

True you don't want a high flow through the fuge. That's why I suggested only about 5x GPH if using the closed loop as your primary circulation.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Crawling68]

about 5x GPH

Not sure what you mean by this, remember, im new.

 

[steve-s]

It means a flow rate of 5 times the water volume of the main tank, so basically 500-600 GPH. A Mag 500 or 700 should actually due for a fuge depending on head pressure.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Crawling68]

Ok, i think i got it now. Thanks for the tons of info, youve really helped me out

 

[Crawling68]

oh yea, forgot one thing. Since the 404 is just going to be used to keep the crap out of the tank, what should i keep in it. Right now its 2 trays of carbon, and 2 trays of bio media.