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Old 02-16-2005, 02:49 AM   #1
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anemone

is it a good idea to move an anemone to a refugium and let it grow, considering it is still small to host my clownfish and i feel it might also impede on its development(anemone) because the clownfish keeps "playing" with it.
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Old 02-16-2005, 03:20 AM   #2
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No don't move it. If anything the clown will help it. The clown and the anemone both benefit from each other. The anemone gives the clown a safe place, and the clown gwill feed the anemone. Trust me, it's a good thing to have your anemone hosting the clown.

Besides, you would have to have some strong lights in the fuge to keep it alive. What type and how many watts of light do you have on your tank right now?
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Old 02-16-2005, 03:23 AM   #3
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Im running a MH running at 6.5 Watts to the gallon and i Have a Coralife running in the fuge at 5 watts to the gallon.
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Old 02-16-2005, 03:24 AM   #4
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Cool!! The anemone will be fine in your main. How long has the tank been set up?
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Old 02-16-2005, 11:55 AM   #5
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If the clown is too ruff on the anemone a strawberry crate( the container strawberries come in when you buy them at a grocery)can be placed over it to keep the clown out.
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Old 02-16-2005, 12:09 PM   #6
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how is the clownfish going to be to rough? I wouldn't even think about putting anything over the anemone. That would impedede it's growth and feeding. I agree with rev the clown is good for the anemone. I mean why would a clown harm it's home?
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Old 02-16-2005, 03:48 PM   #7
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Actually depending on the species/size of the clown and the anemone, the clown can and will damage their host quite easily. Many species of clown are quite aggressive in their "play" within the anemone that can lead to tears in the disc or damage to the mouth. Especially if the clown is large and the anemone on the small side.

The berry basket is actually a good way to prevent the clown from getting into the anemone while it matures. Light can still get in quite easily and feeding isn't necessary.

FWIW, the anemone receives no real benefit from the clown. It's pretty much a one sided relationship. Clowns are moreso parasites in that regard.

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Old 02-16-2005, 10:48 PM   #8
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Wow. Shut my mouth. Sorry for the wrong info. That's what I get for thinking I know. Now I do for sure. Check my Signature.....Now you know....
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Old 02-16-2005, 11:02 PM   #9
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Quote:
FWIW, the anemone receives no real benefit from the clown. It's pretty much a one sided relationship. Clowns are moreso parasites in that regard.
I do believe that the clownfish does provide a few benefits for the anemone. In the wild, clownfish will chase away coral- eating fishes, such as butterflyfish. A clownfish may also earn its keep by cleaning away wastes from the anemone's oral disc, and its tentacles may benefit from extra oxygen due to increased water circulation as the fish swims through them. Ammonia from the gills and exretement of clownfishes almost surely nourishes the host anemone (including the zooxanthellae algae) as well. (Joyce Wilkerson, "Clownfishes")

I do believe that anemones have a better rate of survival in the wild when fish are present. I do not know if it makes a big difference in captivity. HTH
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Old 02-17-2005, 11:43 PM   #10
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Anemones will live long lives with or without fish . There presence or lack there of will not affect that either way. The only functional benefit would be detritus being cleared away a little faster than would have happened without a clown brushing through the tentacles. Anemones are quite efficient at removing unwanted debris from their mouth and surrounding disc. The ammonia would be negligable, zooxanthellae uses only minute quatities along with other nitrogenous compounds that would easily be gained from simple water ingestion. If anything, the excess ammonia and other wastes produced by the hosting fish would be a negative impact, not a possitive one.

As for protecting the anemone, it really depends on the attacker and it's size. Certain clown species will quite agressively defend their host but a greater percentage would just as easily turn tail.

In the long run their is no clear benefit to the anemone. The rest is mere speculation and at best anecdotal.

JMHO
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Old 02-18-2005, 01:08 AM   #11
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If the anemone considers the clown a parasite wouldn't it close up every time the clown came near? Just curious
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Old 02-18-2005, 10:27 AM   #12
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The anemone doesn't consider the clown anything, it doesn't even know the clown is there. The clown is able to adapt itself chemically to mask it's presence. The anemone cannot differentiate bewteen the clown and it's own flesh. A far as the anemone is concerned they are one and the same.

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Old 02-20-2005, 01:42 AM   #13
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you see i feel the clown plays rough with the anemone sometimes, because the anemone closes up when the clown comes near, plus, the fact that the clown keeps biting it doesnt seem to help either.
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Old 02-20-2005, 11:14 AM   #14
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Rough play will damage the anemone if the clown is quite a bit larger than the host. You'll have to play that by ear. If the anemone is always withdrawn and on the move, you might have to choose between the two. Hard call.

As far as the biting, it's commonly the tentacle tips which I can only surmise is part of the ongoing chemical acclimation.

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Old 02-20-2005, 12:37 PM   #15
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Wow, now I know.


thanks for the questins pool_dude and thanks for the answers steve_s.
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Old 02-21-2005, 10:16 PM   #16
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The clown is able to adapt itself chemically to mask it's presence.
Steve, I don't know if this is scientifically proven. There are so many several hypothesises (sp?) out there regarding the issue of how a clownfish protects itself.

1) Hypothesis of camouflage: clownfish smear themselves with anemone mucus and is not recognized by the anemone.
2) Hypothesis of inert mucus: clownfish mucus is an inert substance that fails to evoke nematocyst discharges.
3) Hypothesis of thick mucus: clownfish mucus thickens upon entering an anemone and the thick mucus prevents it from being stung
4) Hypothesis of customized mucus chemistry: clownfish decrease the synthesis of substances within its mucus that excite nematocysts
5) Hypothesis of innate protection: juvenile clowns are not stung when they enter an anemone because the tentacles cannot adhere to them

No doubt, clownfish posess some amazing characteristics that enable them to survive within the stinging tentacles of anemones and some scientists believe that how clownfish do this varies from species to species.

Steve, I consider you the "master" of this forum and your replies have taught me so much, but I am still gonna argue with you about the clownfish not providing any real benefits to the anemone. How can you explain that in waters where clownfish have been over collected, the population of the anemones decreases (according to Joyce Wilkerson in "Clownfishes)?
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Old 02-22-2005, 10:07 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by ZoozFishMaster
Quote:
The clown is able to adapt itself chemically to mask it's presence.
Steve, I don't know if this is scientifically proven. There are so many several hypothesises (sp?) out there regarding the issue of how a clownfish protects itself.

1) Hypothesis of camouflage: clownfish smear themselves with anemone mucus and is not recognized by the anemone.
2) Hypothesis of inert mucus: clownfish mucus is an inert substance that fails to evoke nematocyst discharges.
3) Hypothesis of thick mucus: clownfish mucus thickens upon entering an anemone and the thick mucus prevents it from being stung
4) Hypothesis of customized mucus chemistry: clownfish decrease the synthesis of substances within its mucus that excite nematocysts
5) Hypothesis of innate protection: juvenile clowns are not stung when they enter an anemone because the tentacles cannot adhere to them

No doubt, clownfish posess some amazing characteristics that enable them to survive within the stinging tentacles of anemones and some scientists believe that how clownfish do this varies from species to species.
Your right, there is still no scientific proof as to how this is accomplished by the clown and in fact other members of the damsel family. The one thing I would suggest looking at is the main commonality in each one of your sentences above. Would that not strongly support a chemical chemical relationshop ar at the very least imply one?

Quote:
I am still gonna argue with you about the clownfish not providing any real benefits to the anemone. How can you explain that in waters where clownfish have been over collected, the population of the anemones decreases (according to Joyce Wilkerson in "Clownfishes)?
Always question what you cannot support, that's why we are here.

Personally I have never read the book so I have no frame of reference to what you are speaking. As far as a direct causal effect between the fish collection and what Joyce Wilkerson cited as decreasing anemone populations, again this is an annecdotal observation. Sometimes that is all we have, at least for the time being.

Unfortunately in reply I can only offer you more of the same, anecdotal observation. I agree there would be a relationship in the collection of the fish and her reported decline of anemones but not for the reason implied. It's not the lack of relationship between clown and host, it's between man and his environment. Up until very recently (the last 2 years) collectors for the hobby have operated in a very damaging way. Often killing more than they capture, many still doing so. The one thing to remember here is that anemones are not true reef animals and typically inhabit just outside the reefs or in lagoonal areas. This puts them somewhat in the geography of "fishing" areas.

In many countries fish are captured with nets, dredges and even more popular, explosive reprocussion as well as the polution created by boats. Not to mention the actual collection of hobby species where cyanide was and still is widely used. Think for a moment about a man trying to feed his family who's only resource is catching and selling wild animals. If a fish happens to inhabit a host and that host becomes damaged in the collection process, I doubt the collector would think twice about it. It would greatly sadden you to see what poverty has driven some to in this regard.

IMO, it's not the lack of a relationship that would be the cause here, it's mans interactions.

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Steve
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Old 02-22-2005, 10:27 AM   #18
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I wish I could find the source, but I did read once that anemones that are hosting clownfish will tend to reproduce more often than one without the clownfish relationship.
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Old 02-22-2005, 10:38 AM   #19
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True, there are many benefits to the clownfish. They will repond easier when hosted by an anemone but getting them to reproduce is quite easy and not dependant on having a natural host. Clowns will adopt just about any surrogate in the aquarium or the wild for that matter. It's the sense of having a secure territory that increases the chances and frequency of mating, not a natural host.

What ZoozFishMaster and I have been discussing though is what benefit the anemone derives from this. The benefits to the clown are many.

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Old 02-22-2005, 11:09 AM   #20
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anemones (that are hosting clownfish) will tend to reproduce
I probably should have said split instead of reproduce.
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