Ca Question

[Kurt_Nelson]

I've had a 46 gallon FOWLR up since early September and am trying to get my water parameters lined up to eventually add some soft/med light corals. My tank is currently at

pH 8.3-8.2
SG 1.024-1.025
temp 76-78 F
amm/nitrite/nitrate at 0
phosphate at 0
KH at 2.8 - 3.2 meq/l (8-9 dKH)
Ca at 360ppm

About a month ago, my Ca levels were around 320ppm and I started dosing the recommended amount of B-ionic. My levels got up to about 360ppm Ca and then leveled off. I started dosing more, but started seeing a drop in Ca and a rise in Alk, so I stopped. Alk rose to about 3.9 meq/l (11 dKH).

I searched and read up on the whole Ca/Alk balance thing, and thought I understood what I needed to do. I'd like my Ca levels up around 410ppm or so. Reading an article by Holmes-Farley on advancedaquarist.com (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm) it appeared that with my Alkalinity, all I had to do was add calcium - with NO increase in alkalinity and I should get there.

Over the last four days, I've dosed 30ml each day of JUST the Ca part of the B-ionic for a total of 120ml. This is the equivalent of 45ppm of Ca for my 46 gallon tank. However, I haven't seen any increase in Ca levels when I test! I've gone out and bought a Salifert test to confirm the AP test I've been using and they both agree... 360ppm Ca.

I seem to have hit a wall, but I didn't think that with an alkalinity of 2.8 meq/l (8 dKH) I'd be saturated at 360ppm Ca. Is that what's going on? Any other ideas?

I've got some TurboCalcium on it's way, but am going to hold off doing anything more until I get a grip on what's going on. I AM seeing an increase in coralline algae growth, but it doesn't seem like my tank should've used up 45ppm Ca in just four days - the additional amount I've put in. Could it?

Thanks in advance to the gurus,
Kurt

[Edited to add more info: I forgot to mention... I'm using Reef Crystals, 10% water change weekly, water parameters of the 36 hr old freshly mixed water is about the same as my tank... 360ppm Ca and 2.8 meq/l, pH 8.3 or so.]

 

[melosu58]

I am not a guru but I keep my calcium at around 400-420 just by doing PWC`s with oceanic salt. I dont know why(I told you I`m not a guru) but since using oceanic I have no calcium problem and definitely no coralline problem. Check out my gallery for my tank pics which has alot of soft corals and all med. light corals. Sorry I could not be more scientific but all I have is
experience to rely on.

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

Well... you've been doing it longer than me, so you get guru status by default!

After doing some more research, if I'm understanding it correctly, my Ca/Alk is not balanced. For my given Alk, I should be around 400-410 Ca to be ionically balanced. To get there, I supposedly just need to add a form of calcium (calcium chloride, etc) without adding any buffer. I *thought* using the Ca part of the ESV 2-part system would do that... but maybe not.

I've heard Oceanic salt gives you higher Ca out of the bag, but you take a hit with Alk. Except for the Ca level, I'm happy with Reef Crystals and am afraid to upset the apple cart.

I know if I want to stay at 400ppm or so, I'll have to add Ca to my PWC water since RC comes in around 360ppm. But I'm thinking once I get my main tank in balance, and I find that magic balance point for my PWC water (how much Turbo-Ca to add to the PWC water) things should remain stable. Or maybe I should just stick with my meager 360ppm Ca and not stress it since RC made the salt to mix up that way for a reason, I'm guessing?

 

[Devilishturtles]

Hey Kurt. Have you ever tested for Magnesium? If you are low in magnesium you will have a hard time balancing out Alk and Ca.

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

I haven't tested for Magnesium. I was wondering about that the other day when I was researching though. I'd rationalized in my head that it wasn't a problem because when I was adding Ca, I was just using the Ca part of the B-ionic. And listed in the ingredients of that bottle, fairly up near the top, was magnesium. I figured if I was low, I'd be putting it in with the Ca. I probably should get a test kit just so I know where I'm at. (I'm such a geek when it comes to water parameters.)

Funny thing though, my Ca levels seem to be inching higher. I stopped dosing Ca two days ago and last night my Ca levels finally nudged up from 360 to 380. Tonight they're definitely 380... maybe a tad higher. Alk is still hovering around 2.8-3.2 meq/l. Perhaps adding just the Ca portion of the two-part doesn't *immediately* increase Ca, and it takes a few days to work it's way into the system?

I gotta go to the fish store tomorrow anyways, so maybe I'll pick up a Mg kit just for giggles.

 

[dscount]

If you are seeing a major growth of coraline you would expect to see the calc decrease slightly as it grows. I actually used some purple up a while back during a major growth period in my tank. Once I backed off the growth slowed slightly. My PWC's helped a little with my CAL being fairly high for tap water in Alaska anyways.

Hope this helps. Good to see folks using the ole noggin to learn everything. Always good to know what affects your pets.

Meanwhile back on my farm: I keep CAL around 350 ppm - 400 ppm. I've had problems with ALK and PH keeping up with my tank w/o dosing.

Best Regards! Keep on "not" fishing.

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

Magnesium doesn't seem to be an issue. I picked up a test kit (Salifert) today and tonight the tank measured 380ppm Calcium and 1140ppm Mg. Granted, the Mg is a tad lower than "normal saltwater", but it seems like I remember reading somewhere that as long as your Mg is about 3x your Ca levels, you're OK.

Just as an aside, Reef Crystals mixed up to 1.024 SG reads about 1180ppm Mg.

 

[Tomd]

Randey Farleys 2 part recipe is great for dosing. It is easy to make and cheap using Dowflake, epson salt, baking soda...

I agree with Melosou that if you have a soft coral tank with LPS even you may not have to dose.

If you however have a high load of calcium demanding SPS/LPS and clams you will need to. Dosing with Randys solution and using a Kalk topoff solution will maintain these levels or a calcium reactor.

Randy also has articles on how magnesium affects CA levels.

If you only have soft corals 380 CA is not that bad.

Idealy monitor ALK/CA/MAG/PH once a tank is established. Additions of Kalk drop PH and is better done at night.

Here are more links that will help:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/skip/agu/kalkdripper.htm

If you need more info. feel free to private message me and good luck

 

[ckmn101]

I too use IO Reef Crystals and I was just getting ready to post a ? on how to get the Ca up. I’ve read about the ionic balance between Ca / Alk. I have also been using the B- Ionic but according to a couple reef chemistry calculators I’ve been using it would take bottles and bottles of the stuff to raise it and be ionically balanced.
Let us know how the turbo Ca works
Calculator- http://jdieck1.home.comcast.net/chemcalc.html

 

[Tomd]

I never used it.

I only have used homeade additives like Randys recipe. Since this is brought up I read on another site that Dowflake which is the part used for the CA is going to change its product for the new year and it is going to have higher concentrations so the recipe will have to be recalculated.

What are you keeping for corals? Unless you have more than a few stoney corals or clams I would not go crazy adding stuff.

What are you getting for readings?

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

I too use IO Reef Crystals and I was just getting ready to post a ? on how to get the Ca up. I’ve read about the ionic balance between Ca / Alk. I have also been using the B- Ionic but according to a couple reef chemistry calculators I’ve been using it would take bottles and bottles of the stuff to raise it and be ionically balanced.
Let us know how the turbo Ca works
Calculator- http://jdieck1.home.comcast.net/chemcalc.html

Well, tonight I finally got up to 400ppm Ca. Since my Magnesium was just a tad on the low side, I figured I do a couple more dosings with the Ca part only of the B-ionic since it has Mg in it also. I dosed 30ml yesterday (46 gallon tank) and dosed 40ml this morning. Yesterday, I didn't see an increase in Ca, but today I finally jumped from 380 to 400. Alkalinity is still about 2.8 meq/l, pH is at 8.2.

It seems that there is definitely a little lag in my system between putting in extra Ca and detecting it with a test kit. I'm not going to dose any for the next couple of days and see what things level out at. I'm guessing my Ca will drift a bit higher and then I'll be "balanced." At that point, I'll start doing the normal 2-part dose again with both parts and just use the Turbo Calcium for my PWC water to keep that level up around 400ppm.

Will keep you posted.

Oh... ckmn101, if you haven't seen this article yet, it'll probably help you out.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

 

[Tomd]

Again Kurt if you are staying around 380 with no SPS you would probably be better off with PWC's

Dont get yourself all stressed over CA at 380.

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

As I mentioned previously, without any dosing the best Ca I can get is 360. So to even get 380, I'm going to have to do something other than PWCs if I stay with Reef Crystals. And this whole thing started because I wasn't doing any dosing whatsoever and noticed a sudden drop off in my coraline algae growth. Even with PWCs of 10% a week, my Ca had dropped down to 320.

Trust me... I've got other things to stress about, and Ca in my tank isn't one of them! At this point, I'm just keeping this thread updated so others that may be thinking the same thing as me can learn from my experience. That's one thing I dislike about forums is that on occasion you find a thread that deals with exactly the problem you're wondering about, but you never find out how it ends!

Things seem to be heading in the right direction, and once I get the Ca levels up just a bit over 400, I'll start doing the "balanced" 2-part deal again with the normal recommended levels.

 

[ckmn101]

Yes I agree because I am having the same problem and reading your experience will hpoefully help me.
I only have 1 SPS now but I am trying to get my Ca levels in order so that I know what to do before Iget more SPS corals and not have a big problem all at once trying to figure out the Ca thing.

thanks for all the help

 

[Devilishturtles]

I have been having issues in my tank with high calcium and high alk (500 ppm Ca, 14-16 dKh) after switching to Seachem Reef Salt. After just 3-4 days my readings leveled off to 460 ppm Ca, 12 dKh. Of course, I also use tap water, which I am assuming is contributing to my elevated calcium. I was advised my Hara and Innovator to be patient and let things balance out, and they did. Now, I should be able to monitor things correctly with just more frequent partial water changes and being patient. The complete opposite problem you are having Kurt, just wanted to share. It seems our tanks take it upon themselves to even things out for us, seems that was your case. Glad you got it figured out now.

I personally like Ca at or above 400 to try and fuel coraline growth, but personal preference is everything in this hobby.

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

Just an update...

I finally got some Turbo Calcium and added it to my main tank to bump my Ca up a few more points. (Dissolved it in about a cup of tank water, outside of the tank, and slowly added it over about five minutes.) My tank went from 400ppm in the morning (when I added the TurboCa) to 420 in the evening - right where I wanted it. I've also added the TurboCa to my PWC water that I have premade up and got that up to 400-420 ppm. My alkalinity is staying about 8-9 dkH and my pH is at 8.3 with my SG at 1.024.

I'd restarted doing the two-part Ca/Alk additive at the recommended dosage, but stopped as it seemed like my alkalinity was starting to creep up on me. After 3 days of dosing, it was about 10-11dkH. Now that I've got my Ca levels where I want them, I'm going to restart the dosing but only with half the recommended amount and see how that balances out.

A couple things I've noticed...

* Using just the Ca part of a two-part additive to increase your Ca seems to have quite a lag time before you can measure any increase in Ca. And then when you stop dosing, it still creeps up on you a little more. When I used the TurboCalcium... bang - it raised it just like that. (Maybe that's why it's called turbo?)

* I was starting to wonder if my Mg levels of 1140 were causing me problems getting my Ca levels to increase. After seeing the results of the TurboCa, I can see that's not an issue.

* If you're doing any dosing for Ca/Alk - even with a "no-brainer" two-part system, get and use a Ca and Alk test kit. The Alkalinity part of it can really get skewed if you're not adding the correct amount. It's nothing that a few water changes won't fix, but in my opinion it's better to know where you're going than finding out after the fact you've got a problem.

 

[Devilishturtles]

Thanks for the update Kurt. Glad you got things under control!

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

Just another update...

In my last post, I mentioned that I was adding TurboCalcium to my PWC water and that the alkalinity was staying around 8-9 dKh. Oops... I spoke too soon! As usual, you can't have your cake and eat it too, and I've had to add a little buffer to my PWC water to get it back up to 8 or 9 dkH. Sooo... here's what I'm doing, just for the record.

* I mix up 4 teaspoons of TurboCalcium in 1 quart of DI water.
* I mix my salt water up in 3.5 gallon batches to a SG of 1.024-1.025 using 2 cups of Reef Crystals using DI water.
* For every 3.5 gallon batch of salt water, I add 4 ounces (1/2 cup) of the concentrated Turbo Calcium solution I made up, and 5 ml of the alkalinity component ONLY of either B-ionic or C-balance.

That combo give me PWC water that has about 420ppm Ca and a 8-9 dKh alkalinity, at a pH of around 8.2-8.3.

Hope this might help someone out.

 

[ace1uno_00]

So then what should i do if The Ca and Mag are ok but my Alk/Ph is too high?

 

[ellisz]

Glad your getting it figured out but as was said earlier, if you are keeping softies or even a few LPS, dosing is really not necessary. Having Ca at 360 is fine if you Alk is in balance. I had excellent growth with softies and some big LPS when I used IO and dosed nothing. Unless you are doing acros, I would not worry about it.