Chemistry Challenge

[Hara]

I spent a long time doing water tests in all the tanks. It was past time.
Anyway, below are the results. This is the first time I have done all the
tanks since we got the RO unit and I have noticed that the stability of
most readings has increased, I use less salt per bucket for the same
salinity and the ph is staying at 8.5, using no additives on most of the
tanks. The challenge comes in coming up with an explanation for the
46 gallon tank. It has been "cycled" for 3 months now. But, there is
something definitely WRONG, as nothing will live in the tank past an hour.
As you can see, all the readings are normal except calcium....there is none.
I have checked the test against another test kit, plus used the same for the
rest of the tanks. What could take the calc to zero and yet not affect the
other readings? Substrate is gravel, there is some hirocks baserock in the
tank. I have checked for iron toxicity and had the LFS test for copper...zilch.
I added the results of the RO water as well. In addition to what is on the
chart, the GH showed no reading, which they said meant less than 20 mg/L.

TANK PH SALT NITRITE NITRATE PHOSP. CALC KH mg/L ADDITIVES

175 8.5 1.023 0.1 5 0.5 400 161 KALK, IODINE
55 8.5 1.023 0.1 5 0.5 400 125 NONE
43 8.5 1.022 0.1 5 1.0 350 250 NONE
46 8.5 1.023 0.0 0.0 0 NO READ 196 NONE
30 8.5 1.024 0.0 0.0 0 400 196 NONE
RO 6.6 0 0 0 0 0 NO READINg

[Hara]

I am sorry, I had formatted that all out and it refuses to hold the format.

TANK>>ph>>>SG>>>NO2>>>NO3>>PO4>>Ca>>KH mg/L ADDITIVES

175>>>8.5>>1.023>>0.1>>>>5>>>>0.5>>400>>161>>KALK, IODINE
55>>>>8.5>>1.023>>0.1>>>>5>>>>0.5>>400>>125>>NONE
43>>>>8.5>>1.022>>0.1>>>>5>>>>1.0>>350>>250>>NONE
46>>>>8.5>>1.023>>0.0>>>>0.0>>>0.0>>0.0>>196>>NONE
30>>>>8.5>>1.024>>0.0>>>>0.0>>>0.0>>400>>196>>NONE
RO>>>>6.6>>0.0>>>0.0>>>>0.0>>>0.0>>>0.0>>NO READING

How's that?

Cheers
Steve

[Hara]

Thanks ! now, got any ideas as to why?

[loganj]

Jeez Hara...that's a mystery for sure. Did you use the same salt batch on the 46 as the rest of the tanks? What is the alk reading? Pretty low as well? My tests read in meq/l with the good range being 3.5-5.0. If the pH was low as well, it might make a little more sense. Is there any possibility that some kind of contaminant has gotten into the tank...something we can't test for? One of the kids, years ago, added some dog shampoo to one of my tanks...she was going to give the fish a bath. Needless to say, that didn't turn out well. Have you tried adding a cal/alk additive to see if the levels, once they are brought up, will stay up? Or deplete again? Sorry I don't have a cast in stone answer for you.

[Gauge]

I'm a newbie, so I can't help out much, but I have to say that the story about the dog shampoo really brightened my day. Can you imagine if they'd used bubble bath? ROFL!

Originally Posted by Hara

The challenge comes in coming up with an explanation for the
46 gallon tank. It has been "cycled" for 3 months now. But, there is
something definitely WRONG, as nothing will live in the tank past an hour.

I have checked for iron toxicity and had the LFS test for copper...zilch.
I added the results of the RO water as well.

Some times it's not the water. Have you checked for the possibility of stray voltage?

Many different types of equipment we use are not always perfectly wired or properly sealed. If you are not using a GFCI or grounding probe in this tank, I'd look at that.

Cheers
Steve

[BillyZ]

my only doubt on the stray voltage would be that I don't see how that would affect the CA readings.


I would try contacting the makers of your test kits, and ask what chemicals could affect the readings. It seems there is something in the water that is countering the reaction that is supposed to take place in the test. Finding out what could block the reaction could give you a couple of ideas of what might be in the tank, how it got there and how to get rid of it. The test kit itself may offer some suggestions as to what things could foul the results.

[Hara]

Have you tried adding a cal/alk additive to see if the levels, once they are brought up, will stay up? Or deplete again?

I superdosed some turbo calc last night, I will check the readings when I get home.

I will also see what I can do as far as looking for something that can affect the test results by contacting the companies..that was a good idea that never crossed my mind. I do not know of any foreign chemical that could have gotten in there..no kids in here and husband stays well away (afraid I will make him haul buckets I think)..

[justDIY]

I agree ... there has to be calcium in that water, but there is something else that is skewing the test.

that odd something is probably what's killing things too

it's a lot of work, but how about a complete teardown, a good scrub and refill?

Mysterious chemicals might have saturated your gravel and/or anything else in the tank including the filter and pump(s) ... flushing everything with lots and lots of water will probably get rid of it, whatever "it" is.

Know anyone with access to a chromatigraph or mass spectrometer ... maybe they could test your water and see what weird substance it's holding.

[loganj]

Originally Posted by glmclell

Know anyone with access to a chromatigraph or mass spectrometer ... maybe they could test your water and see what weird substance it's holding.

That will probably be the best way to solve the mystery. If you can get a complete analysis of the water without too much trouble...not sure how easily that could be done where you live though.

Originally Posted by BillyZ

my only doubt on the stray voltage would be that I don't see how that would affect the CA readings.

Although the Ca reading is zero (which I missed ), I was refering to the fact that nothing Hara has placed in the tank survives more than an hour (unless exagerated).

IME, calcium will not make any difference in that short a time. It will normally take a few days for high or low calcium to show adverse effects. Primarily toxin, electricity and/or parasites are the only ones that could do such a thing in such short a time.

Cheers
Steve

[Hara]

I was refering to the fact that nothing Hara has placed in the tank survives more than an hour (unless exagerated).

that was not an exageration

Then Ca cannot be the cause.

If you could elaborate on the types of animals that where introduced and the reaction/systems prior to death that may help?

Cheers
Steve

[D_Frag]

Don't dismiss the stray voltage theory. That one sounds very likely to me. Calcium ions will be attracted to the negative charge of a cathode, and deposit on it. I see that you have several tanks, and am assuming that you would have some extra equipment lying around. If that assumption is correct, try changing out whatever you can, and doing without anything that you can't change out for a while. Those small calcium levels could be sucked out by this method in no time.

Actually, now that I'm thinking of it, here's a way to test for the electrical theory. Take 3-5 gallons of water out of your tank and put it into a bucket with a little of the sand from the bottom of your tank. Dose with calcium, wait, then test. If you get a reading that seems about right, the electrical theory may be the right track.

[D_Frag]

One more thing... If it comes down to it, I work at a chemical research facility, and may be able to get some tests run for you. May... I'll check.

[Hara]

I just tested the water, I still did not have a reading, but the water at least changed color a little, was not clear. I dosed more calc and will check it again tomorrow.

As far as symptoms...the snails just fell off the glass and were dead within about 20 minutes. The fish acted fine at first, then one went belly up and the other wedged itself into a rock and died, no heavy breathing or signs of illness.

I hate to kill another creature...but if you guys think it is voltage and I unplug everything, and a snail lives, then have we proven the cause?

Hara,

How many tanks have the Hi-Rocks Base rock in them?

[Hara]

the 55 is stuffed full, this one has about 20 lbs or so and then there is
some rubble tossed around the other tanks.

Hara,

The only true way to test it is with a ampmeter/voltmeter. I can never remember which. (I'm no electrician)

I would strongly recommend using a trained electrician for this. Never attempt to do electrical work unless 100% sure of what you are doing.

Basically you stick the ground lead into a grounded socket and the other into the tank and see if the needle jumps. If so, then you unplug the equipment one by one until the culprit is found. Then replug everything in and do it again to make sure there's not more than one.

To be completely honest it could be a minor trickle but enough to seriously harm the animals. In most cases a GP will do the trick, but with the rapid deaths, I think you should really get it checked professionally.

Cheers
Steve