General thought on reef keeping

[Reefer James]

So you should revise your statement to chemipure doesn't work as effectively and cost efficiently as its individual compounds?

This is a true statement.

Portions of Chemipure Elite do not work in seawater. This is also true.

 

[Gregcoyote]

I understand you have a position, but disagree that you are right. Chemipure wasn't made for 1000 gallon systems with reactors, it was made so small disposable amounts can be used on smaller systems. It's convenient. The resins are as effective in SW as FW, please post actual evidence this isn't the case and I will re-evaluate my opinion.


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[Reefer James]

I understand you have a position, but disagree that you are right. Chemipure wasn't made for 1000 gallon systems with reactors, it was made so small disposable amounts can be used on smaller systems. It's convenient. The resins are as effective in SW as FW, please post actual evidence this isn't the case and I will re-evaluate my opinion.


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They are not as effective in saltwater as freshwater. This is a false statement.

I believe Randy Holmes-Farley have responded to a few of the fourm discussions on it. I'd google "Randy Holmes-Farley and Chemipure don't work in seawater" Maybe include Ion Exchange Resin.

Chemipure is quite nice for smaller aquariums, but same argument you can save money by itemizing and not have ion exchange resins that are un-needed except maybe a FEW heavy metals which RO/DI already should have.

 

[PB_Smith]

Of course Boyd would make have their claims on their website too?

Let's open the discussion then on why chemi pure is ridiculous.

Basically it's GFO, Purigen, an alternative to carbon, and some ion resins. I'm sure the GFO will act like most GFOs do. The white stuff in there is basically a polymer exchange resin that can bind some organics. Pretty much like seachem purigen. The carbon is really just carbon unless it's extracting different types of organics. Which is unlikely, but could be complimentary to carbon if this is so.

GFO, Purigen, and Carbon all have different life spans. Why throw it all in one media bag when you can save money and itemize things out and use them to each 100% capability rather than throwing out good product.

The claims are that it removes nutrients. So yes obviously the GFO will remove some phosphate. The Purigen alternative will absorb all organics that lead to nitrate basically. An ion exchange resin in seawater will not usefully absort most inorganic ions such as ammonium, nitrate, or phosphate. There may be some heavy metals it can still get but not working towards the claims they're making.

Great product for a freshwater situation, but in seawater they just don't work..

And let's think about the sizing options for CPE? Dang you gotta use a lot of that stuff for bigger tanks. Why not just get a $12 100ML bag of purigen that lasts 6 months, some GFO in bulk, and a quality carbon. You're saving money and not putting wasted products in the tank.

So I wouldn't say it's an inaccurate claim considering the ion resins they're claiming are responsible for nutrient export do not work. It's the polymer ion taking ammonia basically, and GFO removing phosphate and a cheap carbon. I mean what's the appeal here?

I see, so essentially you have little more than opinion to offer and no supporting research or documentation as I requested.
Disappointing because I was genuinely interested to see some independent research on it.
You really haven't enlightened us any more than what Boyd says is in their product, except you are merely guessing at what it's proprietary constituents actually are.
I will add that your opinions are off base as well because Boyd makes three products, Chemi-Pure, Chemi-Pure Elite and Chemi-Pure blue.
The original is essentially carbon and ion exchange resins.
Elite is the same with the addition of GFO.
Blue is all of the above with what looks like Purigen added and is specifically for reef aquariums.


At least get the product line straight if you are going to malign it.

 

[Gregcoyote]

It's all cool. It would be boring if we always agreed. I just like data to support unusual claims.


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[Reefer James]

If you guys don't feel enlightened don't do the research haha. It's not my job to do your research. At this point I think I have explained it. If you want the science behind it you are enlightened and need to do some additional research on your own... After elementary school it's the students job to learn not the professors to teach. So you have the topic of research now..

If you still feel fine using the product after reading my responses go ahead. I don't care haha.

I am encouraging you to read Randys responses or do additional research on ion exchange. I'm sorry I have other ways to utilize my time than provide links on research I've already completed in the past. It's not that I wouldn't love to have everything book marked and be able to provide top job acrediations, it just I don't want to take the time to haha. I've already done my part by letting the forms know that this is actually an issue and topic of discussion for reef aquaria and I am not the only one preaching it.

For ion exchange to be efficient there must be a difference in affinity between the ion in the resin and the ion or ions you want to remove from solution. The resin must have a higher affinity for the ion in solution compared to the ion in the resin.

The ion exchange technology is a perfect tool to remove or exchange contaminants present in low concentrations. In such a case the running time until the resin column is exhausted can be very long, ranging from a few hours to several months. When however the concentration of contaminants is high, say several grams per litre of water, the ion exchange cycles become exceedingly short and the quantity of regenerants increases to uneconomical levels. In the case of brackish water (underground water with high salinity as often found in arid countries) or sea water, ion exchange is not suitable and other technologies must be used, such as reverse osmosis or distillation.

Also, any contaminant that is not ionised cannot be removed by ion exchange. Other technologies are available for this purpose, using activated carbon, polymeric adsorbents, molecular sieves and other media.

Source: http://www.lenntech.com data sheets

 

[Sniperhank]

But that only talks about it being inefficient, not these resins not working at all.

 

[Reefer James]

But that only talks about it being inefficient, not these resins not working at all.

I'd rather not break down affinity.

EDIt: I actually knew someone was going to say that and I was pretty sure it'd be you. The exchange is inefficient for most. It doesn't work for the claims Boyd has made... Boyd says NO WATER CHANGES FOR HALF A YEAR. Lol It does not work per their claims and there are reasons certain ions it cannot exchange at all in seawater

The quote is also for ion exchange specifically, not directly about our product in discussion.

 

[Sniperhank]

I'm not backing those claims either. Weekly water changes of 10% is almost all but necessary to keep a thriving and healthy reef tank to take out the unwanted and replenish the necessary elements that are absorbed.
My point is is that we can't mislead by saying it won't work when it can. It might not be the path that you or I would take, but it will work for someone who wants to try and continue with proper tank maintenance. Along with that, it isn't something that is even suggested to run when trying to combat whatever, usually guiding towards reduction of feeding and water changes first before the use of any type of product as such...though normally point towards a GFO or Phosguard.

 

[Reefer James]

My point is is that we can't mislead by saying it won't work when it can.

See right after you say this you say this: "but it will work for someone who wants to try and continue with proper tank maintenance. "

Doesn't that sound misleading hahaha?

I'm sure a someone who's opinion this forum takes seriously and respect, you can appreciate why I may feel this is even extra misleading.

Someone would read this and now think it's possible to make the product work if they do a water change.

I think it's hard for everyone to get past the fact the GFO, Carbon, and Purigen elements in CP products isn't what I'm talking about. These three things are great and will really help an aquarium but the product labeling is wrong and has false advertising.. 4-6months is just wrong for carbon. I think we can all agree there.

When it says inefficient it means it doesn't do it but for trace levels. For all sake and purposes these traces levels aren't even detecteble change on a test kit.

I implore you to heed my words and recognize ion exchange does not have a place in this hobby.

 

[Gregcoyote]

Here is a interesting debate, frankly I don't use packaged products that are expensive. But many love this stuff.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2079994


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[Sniperhank]

Either way, one would never want to suggest not to replace a product in...well lets just use a 30 day time frame just to have a nice number to use. We already openly agreed to that when discussing proper maintenance.
Still, people like this stuff and this has been a continued debate on if this stuff is useful or not. As I already said, I prefer my Phosguard and Purigen and will guide in the direction that has been successful for me...though GFO works as well I just can't keep it tumbling right in my dual reactor.
Hindsight is always 20/20 when mistakes are made, but there are many ways to build a successful path through this hobby. I like my route, you like yours, and some like chemi-pure. The same debate will go on from LEDs to bulbed units...but both sure do grow coral.

 

[Reefer James]

I don't think I've ever said I know it all. I just defend what I do know... Especially since it's live animals we're talking about :/

 

[coralbandit]

No one will search for themselves.
You all had some incredible teachers to make it this far with such negative outlooks to new info.
Chemipure from the Horses mouth - Reef Central Online Community
It is nice when one can prove themselves correct (or innocent) but that is not how it works,
You should be able to prove one wrong(guilty) to convict?
Open minds and the willingness to learn will go a long way IMO!

 

[Gregcoyote]

Good article. I like a good debate, but balk at being lectured too. It's a matter of style. Some of my fishy friends are recognized experts and old timers with years of experience, yet they share their insight in a digestible way. They also acknowledge there are usually multiple sides to a debate. Chemipure works great for a easy, exchangeable, all in one product for small reefs that don't have the room or want the complexity of media reactors. That's my opinion.


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[Mebbid]

No one will search for themselves.
You all had some incredible teachers to make it this far with such negative outlooks to new info.
Chemipure from the Horses mouth - Reef Central Online Community
It is nice when one can prove themselves correct (or innocent) but that is not how it works,
You should be able to prove one wrong(guilty) to convict?
Open minds and the willingness to learn will go a long way IMO!

Being resistant to blindly accept wild unsubstantiated claims is hardly "having a negative outlook on new information" and as to "not looking things up" If I spent an hour or two researching every idea that gets passed out on this forum by people who should already have done the research I wouldn't have any time to take care of my tanks.

 

[PB_Smith]

No one will search for themselves.
You all had some incredible teachers to make it this far with such negative outlooks to new info.
Chemipure from the Horses mouth - Reef Central Online Community
It is nice when one can prove themselves correct (or innocent) but that is not how it works,
You should be able to prove one wrong(guilty) to convict?
Open minds and the willingness to learn will go a long way IMO!

your mistaken, that is exactly how science works.
science and law are not the same thing.
how science works is that the person making claims, predictions or definitive statements have the onus of providing proof upon them, not the other way around.

I could tell you that we are all living in a snow globe owned by a little 4 year old giant in some unknown galaxy and if you don't believe me, oh well, not my problem, it's up to you to prove me wrong.


If a person makes the claim "chemi-pure doesn't work in salt water" it is up to them to prove and validate the statement.
it is not my responsibility to research it, it is his to provide substantiating evidence, which seems to have ultimately been given reluctantly and delivered with a condescending attitude.

very rarely if ever in the world of science and academia is research carried out to disprove something, that's just silly.

any and every time I have made/make statements such as this, I provide my source material before I'm even asked or I make it very clear it is opinion.
it really isn't that difficult.

 

[coralbandit]

Being resistant to blindly accept wild unsubstantiated claims is hardly "having a negative outlook on new information" and as to "not looking things up" If I spent an hour or two researching every idea that gets passed out on this forum by people who should already have done the research I wouldn't have any time to take care of my tanks.

Not to be argumentative (really) but no one has provided one shred of info to dipute the comment RJ made and Paul questioned?
Yet as usaull it seems many don't want to hear what is being said?
Possibly by how it is phrased but being a touch sensitive myself I still found my way to informed info in under 10 minutes?
11,000+ post sounds like you have time ?

I believe Randy Holmes-Farley have responded to a few of the fourm discussions on it. I'd google "Randy Holmes-Farley and Chemipure don't work in seawater" Maybe include Ion Exchange Resin.

It was pretty easy since we were all given search criteria?

If you guys don't feel enlightened don't do the research haha. It's not my job to do your research. At this point I think I have explained it. If you want the science behind it you are enlightened and need to do some additional research on your own... After elementary school it's the students job to learn not the professors to teach. So you have the topic of research now..

I am encouraging you to read Randys responses or do additional research on ion exchange. I'm sorry I have other ways to utilize my time than provide links on research I've already completed in the past. It's not that I wouldn't love to have everything book marked and be able to provide top job acrediations, it just I don't want to take the time to haha. I've already done my part by letting the forms know that this is actually an issue and topic of discussion for reef aquaria and I am not the only one preaching it.

Source: Water Treatment and Purification - Lenntech data sheets

I'm back on the teacher thing?
Thank yours if you ever see them again as it would appear no thanks will come to the bearer of this info seemingly no one was aware of?

It seems a shame we all let pride or whatever get in the way of receiving new info.
How is it we find time to question the education,background and whatever ,of a poster but not the info actually being discussed.?
I like a good debate also but there is a difference between that and a witch hunt IMO.
I like to debate but I usually try to make my decision through research and education,not the I don't have time to research/debate (argue) with you so I am right mentality?
Again this is not to be argumentative but to hopefully not lose what appears to be a fresh good source of info to this site.
This is an interesting debate

 

[Mebbid]

Not to be argumentative (really) but no one has provided one shred of info to dipute the comment RJ made and Paul questioned?
Yet as usaull it seems many don't want to hear what is being said?
Possibly by how it is phrased but being a touch sensitive myself I still found my way to informed info in under 10 minutes?
11,000+ post sounds like you have time ?

Yes, and with those 11,000 posts I can't even begin to count the number of times people have tried to pass off information as fact with nothing but their opinion and their word to back it up.

It was pretty easy since we were all given search criteria?

I read the suggested information including what you posted but yet there is still nothing to confirm whether or not it will work. Just a load of speculation and a walkthrough on the mechanism of ion exchange.



I'm back on the teacher thing?
Thank yours if you ever see them again as it would appear no thanks will come to the bearer of this info seemingly no one was aware of?

It seems a shame we all let pride or whatever get in the way of receiving new info.

It's not pride. It's skepticism. Spending 2 minutes browsing facebook should teach any single person how important that is.

How is it we find time to question the education,background and whatever ,of a poster but not the info actually being discussed.?

We have asked repeatedly for some source substantiating the information presented. There's absolutely no debate present when the only real response from the person presenting the material is "I know i'm right go look it up"

I like to debate but I usually try to make my decision through research and education,not the I don't have time to research/debate (argue) with you so I am right mentality?

Back to what PB_smith eloquently stated "how science works is that the person making claims, predictions or definitive statements have the onus of providing proof upon them, not the other way around."

 

[Reefer James]

We have asked repeatedly for some source substantiating the information presented. There's absolutely no debate present when the only real response from the person presenting the material is "I know i'm right go look it up"

I think you have a few at this point. And I posted a direct quote about ion exchange. So careful man...

I'm sure if it was Sniperhank posting "Chemipure contains resins that do not function efficiently in saltwater, and some do not even do what they claim."there would not be as much crap headed his way as there is mine. But I guess for some reason I have the reputation of posting false information? Or do people just not want me to be correct?

We're all spending our times posting on forums because we love the hobby. Why argue with me. Just expand your own knowledge and find I am talking about something you may not of even known about.