How do you replace a UGF+CC with a DSB (Sorry to keep buging

[loganj]

DSB

I hope I'm not straying too far from the original subject here. I wonder, after reading until my eyes are crossed (Yeah, Timbo...it ain't just you ), why a DSB works better than a plenum. I go to one site or read one book and they praise the plenum from start to finish. The next one advocates a DSB. To me, the theory behind each one is sound. I wonder if someone who has been there and done that could explain the pros and cons to each system? Just for the record, I have 4" of CaribSea Seaflor in my 10 gal. I was told by several sources that this probably wouldn't work due to grain size and the fact that it's such a small tank, yet my nitrates are 0. Since the days are counting down to setting up the 180g at the eye center, I've gotta figure out the best way to do it so that the nitrates don't get out of control.
Logan J

 

[reefrunner69]

I will post a link to a thread in another forum where the two are debated.

http://www.reefaquariumguide.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21950&highlight=plenum

That will really make your eyes hurt.

 

[loganj]

DSB/plenum

Gee...thanks Kevin I don't think Excedrin is gonna handle this one. Great discussion though...I'll have to read through it several times to absorb it all I think.
Logan J

 

[loganj]

DSB/plenum

OK, I have read the whole post...7 pages...and have learned a lot. I recommend this to anyone who is thinking about setting up either system. The conclusion I have come to is that the DSB is probably the way to go for no other reason than it's easier to set up. Really great article with tons of info!
Logan J

 

[skip_16157]

Thanks too the help of everyone on this board I was very successfull in my change. I did have alot of silt in my tank for about 4 days but it cleared up in about 6 days.

Since the change my tank looks more like a marine setup. The CC just makes it look dirty. I will be using DSB always and recommend it to everyone. I bought the book The New Marine Aquarium and learned alot from it. If I would of read this book first I would of used a DSB to begin with. Oddly enough at the end of the book it gives some info. on the author and he lives just 40 miles from me! Very weird. He has done work at are nearby Pittsburgh Zoo.

Thanks again to everyone. This is the best source for all of your aquarium needs. I am a firm believer that you learn more by experience, and I think that's what makes this site so successful.

 

[mojoreef]

Wow that was a long thread, I think I am going to be cross eyed for life
For those that use DSB's dont you think all you are doing is deffering maintenace up unitl the point when u need to do a tear down???? DSB/Plenums are very limited when it comes to long term and they only really process a small ammount of crud. I am kinda lost as to thier use at all.

 

[Guest]

DSB/Plenums are very limited when it comes to long term and they only really process a small ammount of crud. I am kinda lost as to thier use at all.

This has been well proven throughout the years to be a very effective method of Nitrate reduction. Whether you use a plenim or not, the DSB 4 to even 10 inches as I am now seeing, the bottom of the sand is oxygen free so the bacteria that lives in there processes the Nitrate and turns it into Nitrogen Gas which bubbles up to the surface and is harmless. Most tanks that have a DSB show very little if any Nitrates present. Now, if you implement a Refugium that houses a good amount if macro algae, a DSB may or may not be needed. I believe that most DSBers have a fuge also. Some do not... IT really turns out to be a personal preference but, you can't argue with the continued successes of many people such as Dr. Ron and Eric Borneman who have done quite a bit of research and documentation on the subject...

 

[reefrunner69]

you can't argue with the continued successes of many people such as Dr. Ron

I have fallen out of the DSB backers, I can tell people how to set one up, but Dr Ron has stated that a DSB has a finite shelf life.

 

[Guest]

Ok, I will agree with you on Dr. Schmuck, but Eric seems to be a bit more convinceable....

 

[reefrunner69]

I haven't read anything by Eric about DSBs in recent times. I know he was opposed to Dr Ron's metal toxicity theory, but nothing about DSBs.

 

[mojoreef]

The problem with Dsb's is that they only process nitrogen based crud. Other then that they dont do anything. Which means that everything that goes into it and is not nitrogen based sits their and collects. Since their is a bottom to a tank it will eventually cause the anaerobic zone to consume the areobic zone, then it just fails. Yea it great fo awhile though saves you from simple vacuuming out the detritus but you pay a hard price down the road.
Dont worry about the metals, that was another bunk story by our good doctor. In the wild and in every salt tank their are bacteria/chilatons/microbes and so on that live on metal ions and bind them as so as they hit the water. I think someone was looking for a scape goat on the DSB idea

 

[Guest]

I am sorry, I goofed in my last posts...I was actually refering to the articles introduced by ReefRunner69 in Plenum or no Plenum? By Dr. Rob Toonen, where he was stating the good things about DSB 10cm in depth....

 

[michealprater]

Well mojoreef, what are your thoughts on a 2 inch sand bed that doesnt get vacuumed regularly? Its not cc or a dsb.

 

[mojoreef]

Hi Michael. You everything we do in this hobby is designed to export crud. Skimmers/Algae scrubbers/refugiums and so on and so on. I just dont know why we stop when it comes to a substraight? I would imagine that you are refering to the ecosystem Miricle Mud? Mike all I am saying is that instead of simply removing the detritus we make this endles Sh** cycle. The problem with any sand/crushed coral/mud substraight is that even if it is running perfectly only processes nitrogen based stuff.
Alot of folks believe that the only bacteria in a substriaght is the kind that processes fish waste. This is not even close to the story, man once you get inot the anoxic zone thier are dozens of differing kinds of bacteria. These bacterias create a mini enviroment with in the substraight, each one feeding on the others waste. The problem here is that nothing off gasses like the nitrogenious does (well except for sulphide, but thats rare). Bacteria can just swim up to a metal ion or what ever food source and take a bite out of it. In order to consume they must excrete enzynes/microbes/acids that liquify what they want, then it is available to them. SO what people with DSB's end up with is a soup of these products that dont get processed and just sit thier. Now couple that with bacterial flock, particle dust, dead or dieing bacteria and all the stuff that enters the DSB that isnt nitrogen based and then finally put a glass bottom on the bed (so it has no place to go) and it begins to fill. As it fills it increases in size (the anoxic zone) , since thier is a top to the bed the areobic zone begins to deminish. As time goes by your substraight begins to lose the ability to process ammonia and the ability to lock down phosphates. this is where your creatures will begin to go down hill.

The good Dr. knows this, he choice to blame it on salt mixes and told folks they would have to swap out thier beds and rock every 4 years or so. What he was avoiding was the simple fact that DSB's have limitations. Pretty simple stuff, not so simple if it a source of income for ya.

Sorry for the long post.

Mike

 

[michealprater]

Well let me say this first, after reading my post again I realized it came off as me questioning your theory. So let me rephrase my question to give you a better understanding. I have a two inch sand bed in my tank. The grain size is 1/8 at the largest points down to sand as fine as sugar. It is a aragonite bed. I was wondering how you felt about this type of sand bed. It is obvious you are against DSBs but you did not mention SSBs ( shallow sand beds). Another question, what way do you personally keep your tanks? Bare bottom?

I am intrigued by what you have wrote so far, so that is why I am inquiring. How come some of the DSBs have been working for 12 years and running strong and some have supposedly failed? I am not being smart, just curious as to your response so we can all learn.

 

[mojoreef]

Hey Michael I am not against DSB's at all. The only problem I have with them in general is that most folks are never told about their limitations. They go into them thinking that they are the end ay beat ll one stop fix. They process Nitrogen based detritus like no other, but unfortunately thats it.
The DSB you are referring to is that of Rob Toonans. The life span (or how fast they deteriate) all depends on your husbandry (how much you feed, what you feed, how you clean your tank, and so on) Robs tank is nice but it only has 2 fish and some softies. Softies are in themselves are nutrient loving things. Myself personal keep corals that are much less tolerant of dirty water and I keep alot more fish, thus have to feed a ton more.
The way we all keep our tanks is a personal concept from what we have learned of the years in the hobby. Everything I have learned in this hobby is that we try to remove nutrient, detritus and so on from the tank. Since the substraight is the point in the tank that gets the most I have chosen to remove it here to instead of creating some elaborate...well.....sh** cycle. I don't run my tanks bare bottom, I run them with about a inch to a 1 1/2 inch bed of CC. It is basically an areobic zone so it processes ammonia and nitrite. I get the vac out once a month and spend about a half hour just vacuuming out the detritus and boom all gone. No build up, no non-nitrogen based detritus, no organics or so on. Alot of folks are worried that you will have a loss of bug life. This is also a misconception (to a point). No buglife will occur in the anoxic zones of your DSB or LR, the only exception is one type of worm and bacteria. Thus all the bug life happens in the oxygenated zone on both LR and Sand. In reality when it comes to pods and ampipods a larger substraight is perfered by them (fine sand is virtually impossible for these type of bugs to navigate). Some folks again say that the bacteria that grows in the anoxic zone is a great source for food for your corals and so on. Well this is bunk to. They cant live in oxygenated water so they are unavailable to anything outside their living zone. Even faculative bacteria (bacteria that can live in both anaerobic and areobic zones) are unavailable.
So I guess the next logical question would be "well then how do we get rid of nitrates". The simple answer is LR. their is nothing that a DSB does that a LR cannot. the only difference (and its not as much as most people think ) is the amount of available surface area (thus more bacteria). See LR and DSB do the same thing, they have the same types of bacteria (well until you get to the really really deep sand beds) same type of bugs, but their is one big difference. Live rock is suspended (as in it doesnt have a glass bottom like a DSB has) so the bacteria action (consummation, reproduction, excretion, development of enzynes, microbes and so on) coupled with a little gravity will actually drive the detritus out. A little experiment you can do yourself to check this is to get a small piece of LR and put it into a bucket, with no light and just a PH and a heater. Make sure you blow any detritus off the rock so it is clean. then toss it in, leave it for a week and take a look. You will see detritus all over the rock and on the bottom of the bucket.
Anyway when the detritus drives out of the rock its now available for my vacuum to remove. I also believe in a lot of flow, and I try to keep the detritus suspended in the water column. this makes it available to corals that use it for food and then eventually available for my skimmer to remove.
In regard to your SSB Michael if fine but if you leave the detritus and crap in their your going to have a problem down the road at some point in time for sure. The best thing any hobbist/reefer can do when entering this hobby is to realize that they have a closed system, yes we get that warm fuzzy feeling when trying to mimic mother nature and in some point we can, but when it comes to most we cannot. We can still have very effective long lasting tanks we just have to work with in the concept of closed systems thats all.

Mike

 

[BillyZ]

I've read the article linked to at the begining of this thread that discusses how to migrate from CC w/ Plenum to DSB but I have some remaining questions.

My current setup has a few inches of CC with about 1 to 1 1/2 inches of LS that was added on top of that. The majority of the LS has since settled into the CC but the substrate is still certainly active. last night I sat and watched as some uknown critter created a tunnel along that glass, picking up each piece of sand and CC and nibbled along it's surfaces, tucked it behind him and grabbed another piece. (I love watching my tank on a minute level)

So I know that my bed has critters in it (there are lots of tunnels vissible) but I also know it's not running as efficient as it needs to be (my nitrates are consistently high)

I went to HD and bought myself a few bags of southdown (oldcastle) sand and am ready to make the change. How can I remove the CC substrate withOUT removing my existing fauna? If I remove my livestock and live rock to a temp tub with heater, PH etc will they be ok for say 1-2 days or would you suggest only a few hours? What I'm considering is this..

removing the above items, then moving the existing CC/LS to one side of the tank. Add 2 inches of new SDS (SouthDownSand) to the bare bottom of the tank. move the CC/LS back on top of the SDS and repeat the process for the other half of the tank. Let the tank sit for a day to allow the critters in the CC/LS to settle into the SDS.

I'm thinking about then using a medium size hole strainer, like a wire mesh strainer to strain out the CC. My hopes are that this will allow the finer pieces of the existing LS and existing critters to fall through to the new SDS. After the CC has been removed I would add another 1/2 of SDS to the tank and wait another day. for the next few days I would add additional new SDS 1/2 inch at a time until I've gotten the DSB to the height I want. I would then return the LR and livestock to the tank. Then purchase a DSB revitilizer to replace the fauna lost in the process or the ones that didn't survive in the CC substrate.

thoughts please?

 

[fishfreek]

That sounds like a good process. One thing to note in doing this your gonna stir up a bunch of detrius into the water so having a large volume of water ready to do a water change would help possibly.

If your live rock is in a tub with a heater and powerheads to provide current it should be ok for a day or so.

With knowing how silty southdown sand can be you might want to add enough depth from the outset vs adding 1/2" a couple of times.

 

[BillyZ]

I'm actualy already prepared for that. I bought a 3, 22 gallon rougnecks from HD when I bought the sand ($3.97 each! roughnecks AND the sand!). I'll have two of those full of new water for a water change. I have one more that I'll use to hold the rocks and livestock while I replace the substrate. Unfortunetly I probably wont have the free time to do this for a week or so / but I'll be sure to post my experiences here.

Wish me luck.

 

[nsu7]

BillyZ

Hi I'm curious your tank size and how much LR you have?