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Old 05-30-2012, 01:53 AM   #1
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No nitrate or nitrite

I have a 25 gal tank with 1 dwarf lion, 1 snowflake moray, and a cleanup crew. There's 20 Lbs of live sand and 8 Lbs of live rock. When it "cycled" I saw the ammonia go up then down. But I never saw the nitrite or nitrate go up. It's been quite a while now, i've had ups and downs with ammonia from feedings and such, but still have never seen any nitrite or nitrate. The guy at the LFS said this is normal because of the small tank and quantity of live rock/sand, is this true?

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Old 05-30-2012, 02:01 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by RandyRhoads
I have a 25 gal tank with 1 dwarf lion, 1 snowflake moray, and a cleanup crew. There's 20 Lbs of live sand and 8 Lbs of live rock. When it "cycled" I saw the ammonia go up then down. But I never saw the nitrite or nitrate go up. It's been quite a while now, i've had ups and downs with ammonia from feedings and such, but still have never seen any nitrite or nitrate. The guy at the LFS said this is normal because of the small tank and quantity of live rock/sand, is this true?
I'm new to the SW having my tank up since November but you should be seeing some nitrAtes and no nitrites. Is it cycled?
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Old 05-30-2012, 02:14 AM   #3
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Um I believe so....I saw the ammonia go up the down, but never saw any nitrate/trite.
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Old 05-30-2012, 02:18 AM   #4
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Um I believe so....I saw the ammonia go up the down, but never saw any nitrate/trite.
You may not see it. When I cycled my freshwater and saltwater I never saw either during the cycle. Now I see nitrAtes but never nitrites. On my freshwater water I rarely test for nitrites. And my saltwater tank always shows nitrAtes nothing way high but there present. Ammonia is always stable. Freshwater also...
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Old 05-30-2012, 02:34 AM   #5
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Considering you only have 8 lbs of live rock, I highly doubt your'e cycled. It's really not too much rock at all. I'd add another 10 lbs or so. Even after feedings, a properly cycled tank should see 0 ammonia and nitrites. Ammonia\nitrites are not normal at all in a cycled tank.

On another note, that lion and eel are pretty big to go in a 25G tank. They need a good 50-75g tank.

I'd think heavily on returning your livestock, adding more rock, and if you want to keep those fish, to get a larger tank.

Hope I didn't come across rudely; I just want your fish keeping to be successful.
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Old 05-30-2012, 03:40 AM   #6
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Are you serious they are tiny.... I know they will get a lot bigger but I can't see these as being too big for this tank.

As for the live rock, this is crazy expensive. 7-9 bucks a pound. Do I really need to spend over 100 bucks on more live rock? Can I just buy regular rock. I remember hearing something about doing that and having the live rock jump onto it...?


How could it not be cycled it's going on 2 months I believe...
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Old 05-30-2012, 04:09 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by RandyRhoads
Are you serious they are tiny.... I know they will get a lot bigger but I can't see these as being too big for this tank.

As for the live rock, this is crazy expensive. 7-9 bucks a pound. Do I really need to spend over 100 bucks on more live rock? Can I just buy regular rock. I remember hearing something about doing that and having the live rock jump onto it...?

How could it not be cycled it's going on 2 months I believe...
Rick would know trust me. He's helped me out with my saltwater tank a few times and I can't thank him enough...

Many people use a base rock live rock mix. Put it this way. I have a BC29 and I have about 30-35 pounds of live rock and 30 pounds of live sand. I went with a deeper sand bed. I believe the more live rock you have the better for filtration etc. More live rock won't hurt it will just help.
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Old 05-30-2012, 04:12 AM   #8
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You need the live rock. Be careful about what rock you put in, because if it's not cured you could nuke your tank. Especially if you were thinking about finding some random rocks to throw in there. You could be looking at some deadly spikes to include PH
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Old 05-30-2012, 01:07 PM   #9
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I was thinking about the dead coral stuff they sell that looks like live rock only a lot cheaper. Will it turn that into live rock after a while?
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Old 05-30-2012, 01:12 PM   #10
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Dead rock will in fact become live over time. I buy base rock for about $2 a lb online so it's a hard deal to pass up. lol
\
try these guys:

Bulk Aquarium Supplies - Reef Aquarium Supplies | BulkReefSupply.com

OR

Reef Cleaners| Clean up Crews and Macroalgae

Both online places have awesome base rock. After awhile you wont be able to tell the difference with what was live and what wasn't!
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Old 05-30-2012, 01:22 PM   #11
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It should work. The purpose of live rock is to give your tank more surface are so that more beneficial algae and denitrifying bacteria can grow. It is a crucial part of your filtration.

You have to be careful when purchase base rock or even live rock, because it's not always cured, and it can throw off your parameters. If you buy rock you can expect there to be some die off on the rock from transport, drying out etc. think of it kind of like throwing dead fish in your tank.

As an example, I make artificial live rock out of white cement, oyster shell and salt. When I first finish the rock (before it is cured in water) it makes the PH level go up to about 11.2. If you go and just chuck it into your tank, it's going to destroy it. It takes at least 8 weeks of separate curing and water changes before its good to go.

I think it's recommended to cure all live rock before putting them into your tank, better safe than sorry. If nothing else you could place them in some water for a week or so and monitor for any unwanted spikes. You'll know pretty quick if it needs longer. Just my 2 cents, not expert by any means
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Old 05-30-2012, 02:54 PM   #12
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I'm using the test strips where you match the colors, are those reliable to pick up trace ammounts of nitrate and nitrite?
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Old 05-30-2012, 03:15 PM   #13
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No, they are hopeless, get yourself some liquid test kits.
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Old 05-30-2012, 03:32 PM   #14
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Api liquid test kits is decent brand to start out with.
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Old 05-30-2012, 03:47 PM   #15
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All API tests are inaccurate you get what you pay for.. Also did you do research before getting the lion and eel? The API strips are truly hopeless liquid is way better but salfrite or the good digital testers are the best
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Old 05-30-2012, 04:12 PM   #16
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Ahh that might explain why I never saw anything besides ammonia during cycling. I have API liquid tests for ammonia, but strips for everything else. I don't mind spending money on somethingthat will be accurate and last along time. How do digitals work, any good links on them?

I did my homework on the lion and eel, as fare as care sheets. Nothing ridiculously extensive as far as "research"
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Old 05-30-2012, 08:05 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by RandyRhoads
Ahh that might explain why I never saw anything besides ammonia during cycling. I have API liquid tests for ammonia, but strips for everything else. I don't mind spending money on somethingthat will be accurate and last along time. How do digitals work, any good links on them?

I did my homework on the lion and eel, as fare as care sheets. Nothing ridiculously extensive as far as "research"
Well it would be cool if you have a future tank upgrade in mind for the eel and lion cause they deserve more room as for the test kit you can check out aquacave.com they have lots of digital testers pricier but sooo worth it also bulkreefsupply.com might have some
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Old 05-30-2012, 08:18 PM   #18
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Thanks. Sorry to be a pest but... I checked out auqacave, and I have no idea how any of them work. DO I have to buy an expensive meter for each thing I need to test, or is there one that tests for all the mandatory things?
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Old 05-31-2012, 01:15 AM   #19
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I almost didn't respond at all, since Rick, Carey, and a few others have already hit all the salient points here, but I felt like this was a good opportunity to reiterate all, plus point out the benefits of researching ahead of time.
You'll want at least 1 lb of rock per gallon, 1.5 lbs per gallon is better. But you're running a predator tank, and will need much stronger filtration than that.
A single good Live Rock for 10-20 bucks plus 25 lbs of dry base rock for 30 and you're set.
The absence of Nitrate and the fact that you can ever read any ammonia at all both indicate that you are not cycled. This is more than an annoyance for you. Your fish are swimming in gill burning toxic waste. This CAN kill them.
While others have already pointed out that neither a dwarf lion nor a snowflake moray are suitable for a tank that small, I'm going to add to this.
There has been some research (I think Melosua has the link) indicating that even keeping babies of big fish in tanks too small for the adult size can lead to serious health problems. The moray will get 3 feet long. The Lion probably needs at least 30 gallons if by itself. Always research an animal's requirements before purchasing it.
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Old 05-31-2012, 01:42 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyRhoads
Thanks. Sorry to be a pest but... I checked out auqacave, and I have no idea how any of them work. DO I have to buy an expensive meter for each thing I need to test, or is there one that tests for all the mandatory things?
Milwaukee makes good ones and yes you gotta buy individuals, i recommend getting them if your serious about the hobby since they are expensive and salfrite test kits work good as well especially compared to api
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