55g tank disaster

[RoK]

Well I just recently lost 11 fish due to what I think is either ich or velvet. I don't even know how it happened, it was very sudden. There was nothing new added to that tank for awhile.
If you look at my stock in my sig of the 55g, you can see there's only the rainbows and cories left. I lost all my serpaes, pictus cats, blue phantom pleco, and geophagus cichlid.
It's really weird because I haven't even seen 1 spot on the rainbows or cories the whole time and they still seem to be doing ok. The only thing is the cories barbels have seemed to get shorter?
After I noticed the spots on my pictus cats (the first ones to show spots), I slowly upped the temp to 87F but I guess it was too late.
I'm just so confused and disappointed.

 

[TCTFish]

OK RoK...you know the routine here...(and I did look to check back for any previous posts on this tank..it's going back too far)...please update on the tank...

How long has the tank been up and running with fish in it?
What are the current water parameters of the tank? Ammonia, nitirte, nitrate and pH? Post numbers please.
Is there any medication in the tank? If so, what, how much, and when did you start treatment?
How slowly did you up the temp?

Right now you need to be vigilant on testing for ammonia and nitrite because of the die off. Use a bio suppliment like Nitromax to help protect the remaining fish from any toxins that may rise. Prime or Amquel Plus is also good to use to help protect the fish. May want to do small but frequent water changes for the next two weeks (about 10% once or twice a week depending on water test results).

Sorry for your loss.

 

[Menagerie]

RoK, I am so sorry to hear of the losses. Ich and velvet get a lot of attention, but keep in mind there are other diseases out there. Various bacterial and/or fungal diseases could have caused this die off. This thread needs to be in the sick fish forum, maybe someone can move it.

In the meantime, check out this link: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=64798 In it you will find various sites that I have used to diagnose my fish.

 

[RoK]

How long has the tank been up and running with fish in it?
What are the current water parameters of the tank? Ammonia, nitirte, nitrate and pH? Post numbers please.
Is there any medication in the tank? If so, what, how much, and when did you start treatment?
How slowly did you up the temp?

Right now you need to be vigilant on testing for ammonia and nitrite because of the die off. Use a bio suppliment like Nitromax to help protect the remaining fish from any toxins that may rise. Prime or Amquel Plus is also good to use to help protect the fish. May want to do small but frequent water changes for the next two weeks (about 10% once or twice a week depending on water test results).

Sorry for your loss.

The tank has been up and running with fish since mid-November '05.
I just did the tests and they came out very good:
pH 6.9-7.0
ammonia: 0ppm
nitrite: 0ppm
nitrate: definitely above 5ppm but below 10

I am not sure what the parameters were before and during the disaster. I haven't exactly been testing much lately, I did my weekly water changes and figured all would be well.

I have been doing more frequent water changes, since I noticed the spots on the cats.
I guess there could have been an ammonia spike because a couple weeks ago I did accidentally drop too much food in. I did siphon a great deal of it out soon after but it may not have been enough.

I've been dosing melafix each day (since Sunday), in hope that it helps the cories barbels grow back to normal.
I don't see anything else wrong with the remaining fish? Is there something else I should do?

 

[TCTFish]

Just keep doing what you're doing, but don't put any new livestock in there for a few weeks. Let things settle back down. Bio looks good. Did you use a medication for the ich? What kind did you use , if any?

 

[Menagerie]

I guess there could have been an ammonia spike because a couple weeks ago I did accidentally drop too much food in. I did siphon a great deal of it out soon after but it may not have been enough.

Unlikely since rainbows and cories are as susceptible to ammonia as the others. From my experience, a huge loss in an established tank is often internal.

 

[RoK]

Do you think it could have been some internal bacteria or parasite that caused their systems to become more susceptible to get ich or velvet? What I don't get is why would all the rainbows and cories not succumb to it?
I'm still very confused.

Oh, but I did forget that I got 2 congo tetras that I put in there 3-4 weeks ago. I didn't QT them, I know that's not good. Maybe it could have been them that introduced something into the tank? They were only in for a couple days, I ended up not liking them too much and brought 'em to a LFS. I went to the LFS this past Wednesday and they are still there. All the fish in the tank with them (including the congo's) still seem fine.

 

[TCTFish]

Oh, but I did forget that I got 2 congo tetras that I put in there 3-4 weeks ago. I didn't QT them, I know that's not good. Maybe it could have been them that introduced something into the tank? They were only in for a couple days

Doesn't matter how long they were in there. Fact remains they went in there and yes, could have introduced something into the tank especially not being put into a QT first.

I don't think it was ich that killed your fish. It may be the most obvious to point to being some fish did have ich, but there may have been something else too. Out of curiosity, what type of medication did you use and how much did you dose the tank?

I'm going to try to briefly explain a couple of things about parasites, bacteria, and disease that usually goes overlooked and not much detail is scientifically documented.

These little critters are sort of predatory so are going to weed out the sick and weak before infecting the strong and healthy. It wouldn't benefit them to kill future hosts, so it's very natural for some fish to be infected and not others.

Another thing about these organisms is some are specific to the organisms they infect. Angels and discus, for example, shouldn't be housed together because one carries a bacteria that can kill the other yet leave other fish alone. I forgot which is which, I think it's the discus that is the carrier. How this happens is from mixing species from different parts of the world or even just a different area of a river. Though angels and discus are both from the Amazon river, they may never come across each other. The Amazon is a huge river. Has to be with all those huge fish the river houses.

The carrier has a natural immunity to the resident bacteria it lives among. When introduced to fish from a different area, some or all of those fish may not have a natural immunity to this bacteria, weakening the immune system and causing infections and disease. This same thing can be seen with goldfish housed with tropical fish. Goldfish carry bacteria tropicals are not naturally immune to.

Not all of these different bacterias are commonly known. The congos may have introduced a bacteria that infected particular species instead of infecting all of them. That is why I do not think it was the ich that killed them.

I understand your confusion. I hope this clears it up some.

 

[Jchillin]

Another thing about these organisms is some are specific to the organisms they infect. Angels and discus, for example, shouldn't be housed together because one carries a bacteria that can kill the other yet leave other fish alone. I forgot which is which, I think it's the discus that is the carrier...

I believe it's referred to as Discus Plague.

I'm really sorry to hear about this sudden tragedy RoK.

 

[RoK]

Thanks, sounds like that could've happened.

I didn't use any meds.
It looks like the cories may be getting worse. I saw one of them scratch against the sand with the gill area and it looks a little red now. Should I try some kind of parasite med? The temperature is still at 87F.

 

[TCTFish]

Offer garlic soaked food. Kent Marine and Seachem carry garlic food soaks. Use as directed.

I do feel a bit iffy that the temp has been high for a while. Reason to up temp is to do so DURING ich treatment. It speeds the life cycle of the unhatched larvae the meds don't kill so they hatch quicker and erradication can be achieved within less time than usual. The higher temps do not kill the parasites themselves, but merely elevates their metabolisms. You'll be treating now cause you have to, so keep the temp up, but bring it down a little...say 84 or 85 degrees to lessen the stress factor.

Use an ich treatment safe for sensitive fish. The package or bottle will state if it is safe for sensitive fish/silver and scaleless fish (use it even though your fish aren't silver or scaleless...you still have sensitive fish left). Follow directions and keep us posted on your progress, please

Good luck.

 

[TCTFish]

Oh...one more thing...add a little bit of FW aquarium salt, but only half or less of the tonic dose because of the cory cats sensitivity to salt. Regular dose is a tablespoon per five gallons. You'd dose one tablespoon per 10 to 15 gallons. It will help soothe the gill irritations and aid with respiration. Test the water again for nitrites. This too can irritate gills.

 

[RoK]

Many people here say they have used just the heat to kill off ich and that it works. Also, it's usually suggested to leave the temp up for 2 weeks after the last ich spot is gone, which is why I left it like that. I should still use an ich treatment?

 

[TCTFish]

I've never heard of using heat alone to kill parasites unless the tank is absent of fish, which would make any newly hatched larvae starve. So, again, heat is used, but only to speed the life cycle of the parasite. There's a secondary means of killing the parasites, whether starvation or chemical onslaught. Leaving the temp up two weeks after the last ich spot falls off is going to allow larvae to hatch quicker. Larvae are usually in the substrate. Once hatched/matured they become free swimming looking for a potential meal to swim on by. If ich returns, then a second round of treatment is applied.

Look for yourself...it's not working, is it??? Use an appropriate ich treatment. The high temps, though OK temporarily, can hurt the fish by means of stress if prolonged. In my 20 some odd years of dealing with ich, I've never used high temps in the treatments I've applied.

FYI, if ich is still present after two rounds of treatments, then switch to a medicine with a different active ingredient. Ich can easily evolve to survive the chemical onslaughts meant to kill them. A sudden switch can disrupt that adaptation.

In fact, that's one of the reasons why I wouldn't go for a heat treatment for any parasite. If they can adapt to chemicals, they can certainly adapt to higher temperatures.

 

[Menagerie]

RoK, are you absolutely positive its ich? If you are go with heat and salt. Heat speeds up the life cycle and salt changes the osmolarity enough to kill the one celled parasite, while not affecting the fish. Everything evolves, but you should try the safest method first, which is to add salt to the heat treatment. Many members have done this successfully with cories in the tank.

However, if you think it’s something else (did the diagnostic charts help?), then you need to bring the heat down (as you maybe encouraging the spread of whatever) and treat with a general antibacterial/fungal/parasitic med. If after reading the charts, you think parasite, go with Jungle’s Parasite Clear. If bacterial/fungal, you may end up with a small arsenal of powders to mix into food to strait into the water. I have had success with Seachem’s line when I have no idea if it’s bacterial or fungal—and sometimes you simply don’t know. You might start out with a general med like PolyGuard and maybe add Focus also or just use Sulfathiazole. If you think protozoan or anaerobic bacteria are the cause, Metronidazole should help.

Two very helpful sites:
http://www.seahorse-nw.com/Pg1_Disease_Diagnostic.html
http://www.fishpalace.org/Disease.html (this one has pics)

 

[RoK]

Update:
I'm now using Jungle anti-parasite medicated food, added some aquarium salt, and slowly lowered the temp to about 76-77F. Also, I'm still keeping up with the PWC's.

The remaining fish did not seem to get ich or have anything wrong with them, besides the cories barbels getting shorter and one of them scratching it's gill.
There seems to be no sign of anything fungal, so my guess it's either due to parasites and/or something bacterial.
One thing that I'm slightly concerned with is that the PFS might be too coarse for them? When I run it through my fingers, it doesn't seem to be coarse or sharp.

I stopped using Melafix a couple days ago, due to the treatment period being over. The barbels are still very short and don't seem to have grown back any, as of yet anyway. Seems like it could be some sort of fin rot type thing because of the previous disaster making the water quality not as good as it could've been. Should I try a bacterial med?

Yes, the diagnostic charts did help. Thanks Menagerie! Also, thank you to JC and TCTfish!
I just hope the remaining fish live and the cories get back to normal. :?

 

[TCTFish]

Only use a bacterial medication if a bacterial infection is positively ID'd on any of the fish. Otherwise, it can do more harm than good. Time and patience. It'll recover.