Adjusting pH for breeding

[Mebbid]

I am reading up on some of the fish species that I am not too familiar with, in particular apistos and ran across this gem.

Apistogramma Abacaxis

Doing some reading on their breeding habits I see that they don't really breed until the pH hits 4.0 which brings me to my question. How would you guys go about making a stable habitat with a pH of 4?

 

[Brookster123]

Large volume and frequent wcs. You visit apistogramma.com forum? Mike wise and Ted Judy frequent there. Gillie would probably know but he's awol.

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[coralbandit]

Much is noted on fish being found in water with little movement and loads of leaf litter.
Will almond leaves work???
I know for fact of killie breeders who titrate their waters pH(10 in St. Louis!!) with muriatic acid to the desired level in days!
But, I could find no helpful links beyond reef(Randy Homles Farley??).
As crazy as the acid sounds it is also used to lower pH in pools (do to large volume).
I know a apisto breeder who could offer more info if you want to talk with him(on another forum).

 

[Andy Sager]

When dealing with wild fish, it's best to duplicate their natural water conditions and habitat to get them to breed. Peat moss & drift wood are common things to use to reduce PH and hardness. Use these in a separate large water container with minimal water movement to help reduce ph rise from bubble agitation. You can also try the muriatic acid method in a separate container of water. Best off is if you can find out what kinds of trees are in the areas of these fish and get those leaves to use to lower the PH in the water and use that for your water changes. Again, agitation will help raise the PH so any water changes should be done with little splashing.

Hope this helps

 

[Mebbid]

Large volume and frequent wcs. You visit apistogramma.com forum? Mike wise and Ted Judy frequent there. Gillie would probably know but he's awol.

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I actualiy just found that forum today. Seems like a good place!

Much is noted on fish being found in water with little movement and loads of leaf litter.
Will almond leaves work???
I know for fact of killie breeders who titrate their waters pH(10 in St. Louis!!) with muriatic acid to the desired level in days!
But, I could find no helpful links beyond reef(Randy Homles Farley??).
As crazy as the acid sounds it is also used to lower pH in pools (do to large volume).
I know a apisto breeder who could offer more info if you want to talk with him(on another forum).

That would be great! What's his name and what forum?

When dealing with wild fish, it's best to duplicate their natural water conditions and habitat to get them to breed. Peat moss & drift wood are common things to use to reduce PH and hardness. Use these in a separate large water container with minimal water movement to help reduce ph rise from bubble agitation. You can also try the muriatic acid method in a separate container of water. Best off is if you can find out what kinds of trees are in the areas of these fish and get those leaves to use to lower the PH in the water and use that for your water changes. Again, agitation will help raise the PH so any water changes should be done with little splashing.

Hope this helps

It's hard to find specific information on a small area of water near a village, although it doesn't help that the fish was discovered only 15 years ago.

With the pH being soo low how big of a problem would ammonia be since nitrification doesn't work. Even though all ammonia is ammonium at that point, I'm not sure exactly how toxic it is.

 

[coralbandit]

I am an Apistogramma breeder, ask me anything
Erty seems to know a bunch on apistos and loves to talk about them.

 

[gemach7]

Ammonium is relatively harmless to fish. Since all ammonia tests indicate for Total ammonia nitrogen your going to show high levels. But at 4.5 your going to have virtually no nh3- even if your tank was kept at a low 80's temperature.

My outdoor pond has a stable ph of 5.5 from mainly from rain fall amounts and being heavily planted( mainly to provide cover from passing piscivore birds).

I do very infrequent wc on this system tbh. Most aquatic plants unlike terrestrial plants actually prefer ammonium to nitrate and can absorb total system ammonium faster than they can absorb the nitrate.

That being said I have never attempted to plant aquatic plants or maintain a system at 4.5 to know what would grow at such a low ph.

I'm more intrigued to know see how such a smaller system could maintain a ph that low without a ph crash without constant intervention.


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[Brookster123]

2-3 times as large. Is there anything I can do? I really like the goldfish, and I'd hate to give them up, but I would like some more fish.

Sounds legit! Nice post gema!

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[Andy Sager]

As stated, ammonium is less/non toxic to the fish and if the fish are living in an environment where there is little flow and aeration causing the PH to rise, I would assume that they would have some form of natural adaptation to handle the ammonium present. So how do the fish get oxygenated water in the wild? Thru plant life in the water as well as some disturbance at the surface. If there is plant life in the water, that is most likely absorbing whatever ammonium is being produced making the water safer for the fish to live in. In an aquarium, frequent water changes is going to be the best substitute for lack of plant life. It stands to reason that if there is ammonium present in the pools these fish are found in, and there must be due to the fish just being there, they must be able to handle it.
Now, how does that relate to us hobbyists? It may mean an extraordinary amount of work on our part to maintain these fish at acceptable conditions. You may want to consider this before getting into them.
Hope this helps.

 

[gemach7]

Slightly off topic... They are gorgeous fish look like a more colourful a. Borelli.


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[coralbandit]

My reading on this species said it is not hard to keep.
It is the breeding that requires the proper water parameters.
It is a very beautiful fish!
If available I would give them a go and have a couple of tanks ready for the experimenting.
The picture you provided is outstanding!
You can see the purple jaws and throat in this link;
Apistogramma sp. "Abacaxis" - Dwarfcichlid.com
decent little intro?
My silly GBR won't breed successfully for me without low gh/ph/kh.
They live fine in normal water.
Cycling a breeding tank is kind of moot in these cases as watrer changing is where it is at IMO.
If keeping nutrients in check with the water parameters becomes the main issue then I would just increase breeding set up size till it worked.
Dilution is the solution when you have no other choice?

 

[Cichlid Garden]

Greetings, I'm the guy coral bandit mentioned. He passed this thread on to me as well figured I would stop in and say hey. I received your waiting list submission as well btw, got ya saved. As it has it I have a very small batch of A. sp. Abacaxis fry who as of today jus showed the first signs of sexual maturity. I have one confirmed male in the group this morning. I will have to update my photos as my male has grown a large amount since the last time I've taken pictures.

As for their keeping and breeding it has been my experience that with this species it is more important to keep your tds low, than it is to have a very low pH. To be honest I have been experimenting a bit with this theory with this species because it is labeled as very difficult to keep. I'm looking to also test my theories soon on Apistogramma iniridae, a species who is supposedly will only breed when you have your pH down into the 3's.

However what I can tell you is that first off my fish are wild caught. Secondly, my pair has spawned in everything from a pH of 4 up to a pH of 7.5. However my female is currently guarding a large brood of fry through the tank with a pH of 5. I keep all my tanks at a pH of 5, because it's much less hassle when you have to do water changes on over 10 tanks with 7 different species lol.

Feel free to ask whatever you like about the species. This is my personal favorite apisto species, along with A. elizabethae =D

And coralbandit what do you mean "if available" all you had to do was ask, I've got plenty growing up now =P

 

[coralbandit]

Greetings, I'm the guy coral bandit mentioned.

Feel free to ask whatever you like about the species. This is my personal favorite apisto species, along with A. elizabethae =D

And coralbandit what do you mean "if available" all you had to do was ask, I've got plenty growing up now =P

Glad to see you here E!
And all I have to do is ask!!
Put me on whatever list for those guys!!!! ;P

 

[sinibotia]

As for their keeping and breeding it has been my experience that with this species it is more important to keep your tds low, than it is to have a very low pH. To be honest I have been experimenting a bit with this theory with this species because it is labeled as very difficult to keep. I'm looking to also test my theories soon on Apistogramma iniridae, a species who is supposedly will only breed when you have your pH down into the 3's.

Very interesting! I've had the same thoughts myself about TDS vs pH with regards to most fish in general... But I grant you likely know a lot better than I do. Thanks for the information.

 

[coralbandit]

I put myself on your list for these when I visited your site today;
The Cichlid Garden
Hoping to hear more from you here or at least let other members know how to find you!
Thanks again for jumping in!
Mebbid did you already know this breeder???

 

[Mebbid]

Greetings, I'm the guy coral bandit mentioned. He passed this thread on to me as well figured I would stop in and say hey. I received your waiting list submission as well btw, got ya saved. As it has it I have a very small batch of A. sp. Abacaxis fry who as of today jus showed the first signs of sexual maturity. I have one confirmed male in the group this morning. I will have to update my photos as my male has grown a large amount since the last time I've taken pictures.

Thank you for showing up here to share with us!

As for their keeping and breeding it has been my experience that with this species it is more important to keep your tds low, than it is to have a very low pH. To be honest I have been experimenting a bit with this theory with this species because it is labeled as very difficult to keep. I'm looking to also test my theories soon on Apistogramma iniridae, a species who is supposedly will only breed when you have your pH down into the 3's.

However what I can tell you is that first off my fish are wild caught. Secondly, my pair has spawned in everything from a pH of 4 up to a pH of 7.5. However my female is currently guarding a large brood of fry through the tank with a pH of 5. I keep all my tanks at a pH of 5, because it's much less hassle when you have to do water changes on over 10 tanks with 7 different species lol.

Very interesting, so what is the source of your water? RO/DI?

Feel free to ask whatever you like about the species. This is my personal favorite apisto species, along with A. elizabethae =D

And coralbandit what do you mean "if available" all you had to do was ask, I've got plenty growing up now =P

It looks like I have a good eye then
How long have you been breeding cichlids?

Mebbid did you already know this breeder???

Nope, didn't know the breeder at all.

 

[Cichlid Garden]

No problem, as coralbandit mentioned earlier, I love to share. My water is all remineralized RO. None of my tanks have tap.

As for cichlid keeping I've been doing this longer than I recall. When I was a baby my mother was keeping and breeding many SA and African Cichlids. Jack Dempseys, Oscars, and that kind of stuff. I grew up in Texas and by about 5 I had my own tanks. The first cichlid I bred was actually the Texas cichlid. I went down to a little drainage ditch we called "the bayou" and would catch em and take em home. I kept freshwater until I got to the age I had to move out, but once I was living by myself I immediately switched over to saltwater and was breeding clownfish a long time. I then worked on the road for quite a few years and was unable to keep tanks. About 2 years ago I got a small tank with my gf. She told me no saltwater, so immediately I got into planted tanks and started looking for a cool small fish. That's when I bought my first ever pair of apistos, and from that moment on it was love, with no signs of turning back.

So I'm actually kind of the new kid on the block with apistos. I don't have the years many people do, as I've only found out they existed two years ago. However I own many books on apistos, and I've made many knowledgeable friends and I dedicate a lot of time to studying these fish.

I'm currently keeping and breeding 5 species of apisto, and 2 species of dwarf cichlids. And my fish room has only been set up about 2 weeks now! I actually just received 2 new apisto species and 2 dwarf species 2 days ago. My current species are...

Apistogramma cacatuoides (tank strain)
Apistogramma sp. Abacaxis (wc)
Apistogramma sp. Winkelfleck (wc)
Apistogramma bitaeniata (wc "Rio Pastaza)
Apistogramma atahaulpa (wc)
Crenicichla sp. Orinoco (wc)
Nanochromis splendens (wc)

I'd like to take a moment here just to mention how gorgeous A. sp. Winkelfleck really are. They are an extremely rare import, and very little is known about them so I wasn't sure what to expect for looks. But my god did they turn out amazing! I have around 40 fry from them who will be looking for homes in about a month. I'll try to upload some pictures sometime later today, just got off work working night shift, and going to bed.

 

[Mebbid]

I received your waiting list submission as well btw, got ya saved. As it has it I have a very small batch of A. sp. Abacaxis fry who as of today jus showed the first signs of sexual maturity. I have one confirmed male in the group this morning. I will have to update my photos as my male has grown a large amount since the last time I've taken pictures.

At what age do they tend to show sexual maturity?

 

[Cichlid Garden]

At what age do they tend to show sexual maturity?

They start to show maturity around the 3 month mark when fed well. But this is all based on feeding, and the individual species as some species develope slower.

Also I keep meaning to mention this and I get side tracked with other questions.

My current batch of A. sp. Abacaxis is very small. I was keeping them with cherry shrimp in the tank for the adults to eat, and as the fry grow they like to eat the tiny shrimplettes. Well, I began to start having fry randomly dissappear, and I could not figure out why. I finally witnessed what was happening, the cherry shrimp were actively hunting fry. When the mother was not looking they would drop down directly ontop of a fry, and shove it into their mouth and run. Watched this with my own eyes. Once it started the mother began shredding shrimp. I often woke up to shrimp pieces scattered around the tank, however the shrimp still came out victorious. I ended up with only a handful of fry.

To complicate the matter more, I had a heater malfunction on this tank. The heater slowly drifted up to 85 degrees. This however is fine for the fish, it would not cause any deaths, but the fry sex is determined by temperature in the first two months. If it's too hot, you will end up with mostly males.

So basically, I have a very small batch, and I believe they will all be males. I will be lucky to even get one pair from this batch.

However I still do have another batch coming, they were born a few days ago, so for that batch it will be approximately 3 months until they are ready.

 

[Gillie]

Large volume and frequent wcs. You visit apistogramma.com forum? Mike wise and Ted Judy frequent there. Gillie would probably know but he's awol.

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I'm not awol, the app apparently hates me and never added my post.

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