Are Cardinal Tetras really that delicate?

[Mr. Limpet]

We picked up 7 yesterday from a M&P LFS that has always had good stock (no die off in 5 years), but these Cards have proven to be the exception.

Got home, pulled the water bag out (inside a paperbag) and one was already dead. The assistant we ended up with isn't the best (or my fav) and she was having a hard time catching them. So 1 down, 6 left.

I normalized the water temp, drip acclimated them with tank water and put them in the 8g tank. About 2 hours later 1 was missing from the shoal, found it had wedged itself between the in-tank filter and the side of the tank. Pulled the filter and freed him, but he was too far gone. So 2 down, 5 left but not much I could do in either case.

This morning I get up and find 1 struggling to breath laying on the sand bed and the other 4 doing just fine. First thing I did was a 50% water change and kept a close eye on the poor fellow, but after an hour or so of struggling he was gone.

My water parameters are: Ammo 0-.25ppm, No2 0ppm, No3 10-20ppm, pH 7.4, temp 74, kh 120, gh 140 and water is crystal clear. I know they're a soft water fish and my pH is on the high end of what they like but I can't for the life of me figure out what's going on with them. Everything I've done is well within the norm and I'm concerned this isn't the end of my troubles.

Anybody else have issues with them? Any insight, suggestions or help would be great.

TIA

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[mfdrookie516]

How close are you to your lfs? Reason I ask is because if you are on the same water supply, chances are they're keeping their fish in the same water you are. Usually not a big concern.

it could just be weak stock. You can get that in any fish. cardinals seem to have a better track record as of late, than say neons. I wouldn't blame yourslef for the deaths, since water params look good and sounds like acclimation was done better than most people do. I've been there though. I lost 5 angels that looked perfectly healthy, turns out they were just bad stock.

 

[roydooms]

IME, I lost some cards when I stirred up the gravel(planting) and fish waste and rotten food came out and I caused an ammonia spike. IMO I think they are sensitive to ammonia. Maybe it's the temp. They like high temps too. Can you increase temp at least close to 80F? Or you just got a bad stock.

 

[herp_mommy]

My cardinals are very hearty. I've got about 20 in my discus tank. It might just be the stock

 

[Shadowraven]

From the post I would say that you just got bad stock. You already did what many don't, and that is using drip acclimation. Drip acclimation is the best way to slowly adjust the fish to your water parameters. From my experience cards were no more delicate than any other fish of their type. It's also possible that your person at the LFS may have injured them during the capture. Especially if she was having trouble catching them in the first place.

 

[Mr. Limpet]

How close are you to your lfs? Reason I ask is because if you are on the same water supply, chances are they're keeping their fish in the same water you are. Usually not a big concern.

it could just be weak stock. You can get that in any fish. cardinals seem to have a better track record as of late, than say neons. I wouldn't blame yourslef for the deaths, since water params look good and sounds like acclimation was done better than most people do. I've been there though. I lost 5 angels that looked perfectly healthy, turns out they were just bad stock.

We're on different water supplies, but I dripped 2 gallons over 2 hours and figured that was going resolve any water issues. We wanted to get 6 but I couldn't leave the lone one since these were all they had.

From my research most Cards are wild caught and their heartiness can be an issue and never considered bad stock since I know this place to be a quality shop. I just hope the last 4 do better and I'm now below the minimum recomended 5 per shoal. Just not sure I want to bring in more if this continues. Do you think I'll cause them stress if I don't bring in a 5th one?

They're the only ones in the tank, it's planted and I have some DW to provide cover too.

Thanks for the words of encouragement rookie, the first 2 were beyond my control, but die off is something I haven't had in many years so it's a bit disconcerting .

IME, I lost some cards when I stirred up the gravel(planting) and fish waste and rotten food came out and I caused an ammonia spike. IMO I think they are sensitive to ammonia. Maybe it's the temp. They like high temps too. Can you increase temp at least close to 80F? Or you just got a bad stock.

The tank is pristine, so stir isn't an issue and the temp recommendation is 73 - 80, so I wanted it on the low end since small tanks are affected more by room temp than larger tanks. I think you're right that it needs to be raised, so I bumped it to 76. Thanks

From the post I would say that you just got bad stock. You already did what many don't, and that is using drip acclimation. Drip acclimation is the best way to slowly adjust the fish to your water parameters. From my experience cards were no more delicate than any other fish of their type. It's also possible that your person at the LFS may have injured them during the capture. Especially if she was having trouble catching them in the first place.

The dead one when we got home (10 mins travel time) was most likely the netting at the LFS and the trapped one wasn't something I could forsee. But the one this morning is what bothered me because they were all doing great last night, at lights out.

Is bad stock in wild caught fish pretty common? I'm planning a GSP tank right now and I've read most are wild caught. I guess I could try to get ones that are captive bred.

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[Shadowraven]

Is bad stock in wild caught fish pretty common? I'm planning a GSP tank right now and I've read most are wild caught. I guess I could try to get ones that are captive bred.

The short answer to that is that it can be. It is not unknown in the trade for up to 80% of a wild catch to die off due to the stress of capture and shipping. It really depends on how they are treated by the supplier. Not every supplier in this trade is conscientious.

 

[fishguy1]

I hear a lot of people say that neons are very delicate and cardinals are hardy, but IME that's not been the case. That's not to say that that ISN'T the case...just not for me. My neons might just be really good stock and the cardinals I've had weren't.

 

[Mr. Limpet]

Yeah, this LFS is a god place, clean tanks, etc. so I trust them, other than the owner says MTS are a pest lol. For some I guess they are.

The bigger question I have is, should I get my shoal back to a minimum and pick up 2 more Cards, or wait and see?

We're going to another place today (5* SW/FW LFS) that has them too.

Is it bad mixing stock?

Thanks again all!

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[fishguy1]

Any time you add to a school you are mixing stock. No 2 batches of fish are the same, especially for group breeders. There's nothing wrong with it, as there is no other choice

 

[Shadowraven]

I'd wait just to make sure that you are not having any other problems before you add more fish. A week or two should do it. If there is something wrong with these fish, and I not saying that there is, you don't want it spreading to others. If they stabilize, then by all means get them back up to group strength. It won't hurt them too much to be kept that way for that amount of time. Just be sure to get more. It won't hurt to mix the stocks either. They are usually mixed with others when shipped anyway.

 

[Mr. Limpet]

The 4 are doing great, schooling, no signs of stress or affliction so I think I'll get 2 more.

Thanks!

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[Shadowraven]

That's great! I'm glad to hear that the rest of them are doing OK. Sally forth and acquire new subjects!

 

[Mr. Limpet]

Not sure, but I think the deaths in the tank (2 + the 1 I know of) may have all been due to the Cards getting behind the filter. I found 2 do it and rescued them ASAP, then promptly fixed the trap issue. 48hrs and everyones doing good.

Thanks for all your help!