Badis never had a chance

[Menagerie]

When I bought my 6 Badis badis, I suspected some fish might have ich. They got their own tank and we waited (my fiancé is convinced fish have great immune systems—he has taught an ichthyology lab, so I trusted what he said); although, we did add salt. After a week of that, my fish looked disgusting--getting worse. We did a treatment of "Super Ick Cure"--I was not impressed. On February 20 and 22, Badis were given a dose of Cupramine--highly recommended by the LFS were I bought the Badis. In addition, the temperature was slowly raised to 90.

(An aside about this LFS--seemingly loved by all Calgarians, they do have QT signs and do not sell their fish right away--from what I can tell. However, while picking out my Badis, I mentioned to the young man that one of the fish looked like it had ich--do not pick it. He looked at the fish in question and picked out other fish for me. A week later, I was back picking up other fish and I told a different employee the Badis have ich. He said he was not aware of that and looked in the tank and didn't see anything wrong. The lighting is poor and if you look long enough, you WILL see it. Since then I have gone back on two other occasions and those Badis HAVE ICH!!! I know better than to buy ill fish, but I could not resist them. I will be going there tomorrow (clown loach died within the LFS' refund time—the other two healthy, healthy!) and of course I will be looking at the Badis. If the Badis still have ich, how do I get these people to listen to me??)

Back to my Ich problem--it's still there, no worse, no better. The temp is up to 90 and has been at 90 for some time! On March 8, we will put the activated charcoal back for 24 hours and redose with Cupamine. Does anyone know if this will help?? The Badis are for the most part active and they love to eat. I have not lost any of them and do nightly head counts. There is 0 ppm ammonia and pH 8.
I know they like a neutral pH (range 6 to 8) and temps of 72-80, but tolerate to 85. Am I doing more harm than good?

HHHHEEEELLLLPPPP!!!!

 

[Menagerie]

Update-- I accompanied my fiancé to the LFS to get a credit on the dead clown loach and check out the statis of their Badis. Still had ick. My fiancé was talking to the guy about our Badis and getting recommendations on further treatment. I looked the guy square in the eye and told him the Badis in the store were ill. He didn’t realize it and walked over to the tanks. He saw one with ich and then said some had velvet (treatable the same as ich). Right in front of me he put up QT signs and said they would be treated. YEAH!!!!
However, my Badis still don’t look so hot. I have been looking on-line and saw this from http://www.aqualink.com/disease/sdisease.html#velvet :

Velvet
Symptoms: Very small white speckles on fish. Resembles a fine powder.
Treatment: There are many commercially available products to cure Velvet. Among them are Maracide by Mardel Laboratories and Super Velvet by Aquatronics.
Information: Velvet, or Oodinium, is a very common disease, which resembles Ich. The white pustules are much finer and are located mainly on the body. It is a little easier to cure than Ich, since the life cycle is not so rapid. It commonly follows chilling or stress caused by transportation or poor water quality.

So far, it has been anything but easier than treating ich, IME. Anyone have any advice on how to treat Velvet?

 

[Allivymar]

The lfs dude is correct; treatment for velvet is the same for ich in terms of medication; the stuff in most ich meds also kills the velvet parasite. Thing is, I have no idea if the heat treatment works; I have never found any info about it I suggest using either some QuickCure or RidIch. Are they still in QT? It'll be easier to treat em in there as those meds will likely kill off nitrifyng bacteria.

 

[Menagerie]

The Badis are living in their own 10 gal tank--the two QT tanks are currently occupied by the pleco and pygmy cats. I have lowered the heat since it has been a long time and no reduction in spots of disease.
Last night while feeding them, I saw the smallest one had died . I also noticed another one is not looking so well. The bigger ones seem to be handling the treatment better.
If the nitrifying bacteria dies--I can quickly seed the filter from another tank (MTS does have it's uses).
Thanks for the help.

 

[Menagerie]

I lost another one last night
I moved them out of their 10 gal tank to the 5 gal QT tank to start a new treatment. Thanks to my stupidity, the sealant in the 10 gal is a lovely blue . This time, I am treating with Malachite green based med (the other was copper based). I am hoping the others pull through. The rest are bigger and seem to be doing well--actively going for food and coming to the top every time I walk by.
In other news, the Badis at the LFS are being treated (I forgot to ask with what). I was there earlish on Sunday and noticed a small one of theirs was dead, before it was pulled from the tank. I did get full credit for my first loss and will go back again soon with the second one. I really do have better things to do with my time, but if I need to spend 30 min driving to and from the not-so-LFS, I will.
In the meantime, my five 1/2 inch pygmy cories are enjoying the 10 gal hex all to themselves (well, the butterfly loach is supervising the wee-ones).

 

[Menagerie]

Badis are taking a turn for the worse~HELP!

I can't take this--they are suffering! Another Badis died tonight.
From what I remember last night, the weakest one had redder gills than the others. We have been checking ammonia -- it was barely detectable this evening (0.5 to 1.0 ppm)--we did a half water change. Water from the 50 gal (no ammonia detectable) was used. Now, one of the larger ones is lying on its side and has reddish gills. The other two do not have reddish gills. We are doing another water change. There is no pH difference--all water is coming from the 50 gal and temp is good.
HELP!!!

 

[Allivymar]

Actually, .5 - 1.0 is not barely detectible. Depending on your pH levels and temps, it can be deadly. From the krib faq (http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html):

Water Temperature
pH 20C (68F) 25C (77F)
_________________________________
6.5 15.4 11.1
7.0 5.0 3.6
7.5 1.6 1.2
8.0 0.5 0.4
8.5 0.2 0.1

Those numbers are the ammonia levels. That may be adding to the problem.

 

[Allivymar]

Actually, .5 - 1.0 is not barely detectible. Depending on your pH levels and temps, it can be deadly. From the krib faq (http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html):

Water Temperature
pH 20C (68F) 25C (77F)
_________________________________
6.5 15.4 11.1
7.0 5.0 3.6
7.5 1.6 1.2
8.0 0.5 0.4
8.5 0.2 0.1

Those numbers are the ammonia levels. That may be adding to the problem.

 

[Menagerie]

.5 - 1.0 is not barely detectible

"barely detectable" on the chart is what I meant. The tube holding the water sample was such a light yellow, my fiancé and I had a hard time telling it was yellow.
We did another ½ water change before bed last night and everyone is still with us as of this morning. The ammonia levels had been fine (according to our test and at the LFS) until last night. These fish are only an inch long and they have been being treated since Feb 20th—it’s amazing any are still with us. We'll just keep water changing--part of me thinks the meds were actually making them worse. There is no bacteria growth on the filter (to be expected); actually as of last night, I gave up on the filter because the little guys were being pushed around--they are not as strong as they once were. We put in an air stone and they seem to like that better.
There is no detectable ammonia this morning, but I will water change anyway.

 

[Menagerie]

I am so upset. The Badis at the store are on the decline and not in QT. I am in that LFS once a week--whether it's for fish (not any more) or as the case today--we were picking up birdseed.
My fiancé left the tank area because he couldn't "stomach" what I was going to do. I didn't yell, or curse, but calmly told yet another employee that their Badis were ill and were going to die. My Badis have not been helped by any treatment.
Of my original six, there is one left in QT and one I placed back in the 10 gal hex.
The one in QT has a secondary infection (or whatever--his eyes are clouded over); he does not eat and just lies on his side in the corner.
After a long discussion with my fiancé, we decided that the other guy was fine--he survived well over a month of treatments and had to signs of disease. If anything, he was starting to look worse, lying against the side of the tank. He is happy and doing well in the 10 gal.
It looks like I will keep one of the original six As for the ones at the LFS, I can't help them, I can't even stop the LFS from selling them to others. I have watched this disease engulf my little fish--I know the signs of this disease’s progression--they don't eat; they are near the bottom of the tank.... A couple Badis at the LFS were so skinny and their stomachs were shrunken in. The ones that have white fuzz are still active. If you didn't know any better, you could just walk by and not notice anything wrong because the lighting is so poor. I know the QT sign will "fall down" again and the Badis will be back on sale :x .
At some point this week, I will go in and ask to have some put in a container and bring them out to where the light is good. I will look them over real well and pick a few that I believe are disease free. They will have to live in the QT tank for a long while, but if they haven't got it, maybe they won't get it. I am probably looking for heartbreak, but two of mine did not show any signs of disease and yet only one is still with me. I don't think they were able to survive the meds for that long.

 

[Menagerie]

We lost the one in QT today

 

[Allivymar]

Oh I'm sorry honey.

I've been following your trials and tribulations from the first post, although you certainly didn't need my help - you did everything possible. Least the little guys had good care even if they weren't destined to make it. Have a few kudos for working so hard.

 

[Menagerie]

Thanks for your kind words, Alli. This has been a nightmare--figuratively and literally. I dream of fish… ugly, sick fish. The night I returned from the LFS (that is not taking care of their Badis), I dreamt I was in a LFS, but it was set up like a candy shop. The small fish were in the old-fashioned glass candy containers with the metal lids. My fiancé was buying feeder fish for the cichlids (we never use feeder fish). I kept saying only two of our fish are over 5 inches. Then, I was looking at a container of Badis--their eyes were clouded over and there were hundreds in the small container. Then I was talking to the guy (it was the guy who hosts Fear Factor--I watched ONE episode about two months ago) selling the feeders to my fiancé. The guy was asking what I fed to the cichlids--I told him zucchini, algae wafers, cichlid pellets. He said no wonder your fish are so small! I was so upset that he was questioning my judgment! The dream ended by me meeting my fiancé at the door and telling him we were never coming here again. He said he would come back be himself.

That dream has haunted me for days—I just had to share it

In any event, the little Badis that is living with in the 10 gal hex is doing great and eating BBS with reckless abandon!

 

[Menagerie]

The real story: My Badis never had velvet--they had a fungal infection. Why did I listen to those dopes at the LFS??? Of course they started dieing once I put them on anti-ich/velvet meds--the fungus just took off. I researched velvet and never saw a picture, only how to cure it. I know what fungus looks like . Lesson learned (the hard way again).
How do I know all this now? I was talking with someone with tons of fish experience and when he asked me to describe the disease, he told me what it was. I found pictures. It was fungus. Totally treatable.
Rest in peace little Badis

 

[An t-iasg]

Menagerie, I'm sorry for all your losses. Allivymar is right -- you certainly did everything you could, including getting the lfs guy to treat the ones still in their tank. Don't be too hard on yourself. Is the badis in the 10 gallon hex still doing ok?

 

[Menagerie]

He is a trooper. The only thing I noticed about him is there's ONLY ONE of him in the tank .
It also appears that he could use a clue as to how to eat. When I first got them all, frozen bloodworms were eaten with vigor. He is interested in them while they are falling, but that's it. I have been hatching brine shrimp for him and that seems to be helping. Meanwhile, the pygmy cats in there must think they won the lotto—fresh food!

 

[webmoose]

Menagerie,

I was at that fish store yesterday and Saw 2 tanks of Badis Badis. Firstly they are awsome looking fish!

Secondly, I swored I saw ick on one of them. Definately white spots!!!

Is this the same tank that you got yours from? OR is this a new batch?

Moose

 

[Menagerie]

Same batch of SICK fish. They are not caring for them properly
The lighting is low, I believe the fish still at the LFS maybe suffering from multiple ailments. Some (if you look close enough and long enough) have a cottony growth. Some have white spots on the fins.
Also, they are not selling (forget they are sick, there's never a QT sign up) because people don't know what to do with them. I will be taking my last Badis body over there today. I really want to take the ones that look healthy home. One of my Badis is fine--I don't think he was ever sick. The little trooper went through all the meds and treatments and after 6 weeks of this, started to go downhill. That's when we pulled him and put him in the Badis tank.

 

[webmoose]

That really really really sucks.. I was looking at them in disbelief. I was almost thinking I was just being paranoid. I was going to pick up 1 more sword tail until I saw a balloon molly floating with its eyes missing.. I left with zero fish..

 

[Menagerie]

I have NOT been impressed with that LFS lately. I want more pygmies and I would love to take the well Badis home, but I do not want to reward their crappy fish department with my purchasing money. (I just canceled a fish order from another LFS because they sell a lot of painted/dyed fish.) As my fiancé said, we are at the stage in aquarium keeping that we can special order from an LFS we really like (even if that LFS specializes in cichlids and we want Badis or bb gobies) .