Blue-Green Algae, Cyanobacteria YUCK

[jenelle]

Thanks aqua_chem for the input. I must be overfeeding, as I've cleaned/PWC my tank regularly. I also had 2 HOB filters running (now switched to Fluval 306 canister this week). For months I did maintenance once a week, then I was told that was overkill by people who say they are lucky if they do it once a month and STILL don't have algae. So I went to once every 2 weeks.

1) What should my nitrate levels be? I always thought they were supposed to be really low.

2) Should I try something like SeaChem's Phosguard or is that the resin you are referring to?

3) I ordered a Hydor Koralia 425 powerhead which will arrive Monday to help with flow.

4) I am running Fluval Plant/Life Spectrum LED and semi DIY C02 (pop bottles with citric acid & baking soda). I don't want to toss the lights as I spent a small fortune on them. Should I switch to pressurized C02 (intimidating!) - I do love the plants.

5) anything else you would recommend?

Thanks everyone... I am gaining a much greater appreciation for the delicate balance required in a freshwater tank.

 

[aqua_chem]

1) What should my nitrate levels be? I always thought they were supposed to be really low.

Avoid extremes. Between 10 and 40 ppm is probably a good spot to be.

2) Should I try something like SeaChem's Phosguard or is that the resin you are referring to?

As I said, I would just avoid it altogether. The idea that phosphates cause algae is pretty hard rooted in the hobby, but hasn't really panned out over the last decade or so when it has been tested.

3) I ordered a Hydor Koralia 425 powerhead which will arrive Monday to help with flow.

4) I am running Fluval Plant/Life Spectrum LED and semi DIY C02 (pop bottles with citric acid & baking soda). I don't want to toss the lights as I spent a small fortune on them. Should I switch to pressurized C02 (intimidating!) - I do love the plants.

If you're getting the results you want, I would stick with it. BGA, unlike some algae, doesn't really care about CO2 levels, so it's not really indicating a problem in that regard.

Also citric acid and baking soda? Old school.

5) anything else you would recommend?

Remind me what you're doing for ferts?

 

[jenelle]

For ferts?

I'm doing Flourish once a week. That's it.

Yes, I agree citric acid/baking soda is amateur (but hey, that's what I have been so far - an amateur!). Am I getting the results I want? Well, no. Although all the easy to grow plants grow like crazy, I've repeatedly ripped out all my plants and bought new ones due to first black algae, and now this. My red plants and fragile leaf plants always die.

If I was going to take the leap to pressurized canister (which I am very tempted to do), could you recommend where to start in order to figure out what to buy, how to set it up, etc. (No pet shop in town here has equipment for that, so I either have to travel to Vancouver or order online).

Thanks again.

 

[jarrod0987]

CO2 injection is expensive. Try Seachem's Flourish Excel. It is an alternative carbon source and works well at growing plants and seems to have a side effect of getting rid of algae. Perhaps it is an Aleopathic effect. I disagree that phosphates role in relationship to algae is unproven. It has been proven to my and many other's satisfaction for a long time now. Since I started testing for phosphate in ultra low levels and made sure I removed any , My tanks have no algae anymore. The problem is that we did not originally realize what tiny amounts necessary. 30 parts per BILLION can be too much phos. Most test kits are not that sensitive. Also....we are finding Iron may play an important role in some cases.

 

[Fresh2o]

CO2 injection is expensive. Try Seachem's Flourish Excel. It is an alternative carbon source and works well at growing plants and seems to have a side effect of getting rid of algae. Perhaps it is an Aleopathic effect. I disagree that phosphates role in relationship to algae is unproven. It has been proven to my and many other's satisfaction for a long time now. Since I started testing for phosphate in ultra low levels and made sure I removed any , My tanks have no algae anymore. The problem is that we did not originally realize what tiny amounts necessary. 30 parts per BILLION can be too much phos. Most test kits are not that sensitive. Also....we are finding Iron may play an important role in some cases.

If you want to save money with a non-CO2 carbon source, look for Metricide 14. Online for around $20-25 for a gallon. Volume wise it equal to about seven 15 oz Excel bottles. It's twice as concentrated as Excel so it's a good value.
Is the very low phosphate advice for a planted or non-planted tank?


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[Reygan2]

If you want to save money with a non-CO2 carbon source, look for Metricide 14. Online for around $20-25 for a gallon. Volume wise it equal to about seven 15 oz Excel bottles. It's twice as concentrated as Excel so it's a good value.
Is the very low phosphate advice for a planted or non-planted tank?


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Metricide 14 works great for me! I use the 50/50 mixture.

 

[jenelle]

Regyan and Fresh 2o, do both of you use Metricide 14 instead of CO2 injection? Are you able to grow red plants?

Also, doing some reading this afternoon about carbon, and wondering if that is part of my problem re. nutrients and phosphates... maybe I should use purigen instead? I'm hesitant to dump chemical filtration altogether right now due to some residual odor coming out of the tank - my husband is complaining.

PS I'm officially done the erythromycin today - after the kids go to bed, I'm going to replace a bunch of water and put the carbon back in for now.

FINGERS CROSSED.

 

[Fresh2o]

I use glutaraldehyde (or glut, the active ingredient in Metricide 14, Excel, API CO2 Booster) in conjunction with pressurized CO2. For about a year I was doing yeast based DIY CO2 along with glut. I increased the lighting and needed a consistent carbon supply. Yes, I could have gone the glut only route. It's been done before with success (look up Rivercats tanks). But I wanted to try pressurized. I went with an AquaTek premium regulator, 24 oz paintball tank, and inexpensive ceramic diffusers. The regulator is pretty much entry level and can be challenging when setting the bubble count but has work well for my tank.
I can smell a tank that has BGA. It has a distinctive swampy smell.


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[Reygan2]

I used to use DIY yeast based C02 injection. Now I keep it even simpler, no C02, low light plants with daily glut dose. Nothing fancy, mainly crypts, Java fern, swords...


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[jenelle]

It's been 12 hours since I did a 33% water change and put the carbon back in. I did all my tests this morning:

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate Between 10-20
pH 6.6
KH 30 mg/L (ppm) - I think this is really low. ?
GH 60 mg/L (ppm)
Chelated Iron - 0.1 (also low I think)

So my BB did just fine after a full treatment of Erythromycin for BGA. In order to get my tank really into shape I'll need to address the KH and possibly the Iron.

I actually never used the KH test before (sitting in my shelf) as I didn't know what to do with the results...

 

[Delapool]

It's been 12 hours since I did a 33% water change and put the carbon back in. I did all my tests this morning:



Ammonia 0

Nitrite 0

Nitrate Between 10-20

pH 6.6

KH 30 mg/L (ppm) - I think this is really low. ?

GH 60 mg/L (ppm)

Chelated Iron - 0.1 (also low I think)



So my BB did just fine after a full treatment of Erythromycin for BGA. In order to get my tank really into shape I'll need to address the KH and possibly the Iron.



I actually never used the KH test before (sitting in my shelf) as I didn't know what to do with the results...

Looking at that kh is low - I prefer 60ppm minimum and mine for a planted tank is about 90ppm (tap water over winter). I'd check tap water as well.

Iron - I'm not sure if all tests are the same but I dry dose micros (including iron) and the iron test barely registers. I should be dosing 0.5ppm and I dose once a week. My suspicion is it gets locked out of the water column quite quick so could be better than you think. Dosing iron and phosphate together could result in iron phosphates dropping out so I still dose micros and phosphate on separate days.

Dosing link below just in case useful.

http://yanc.rotalabutterfly.com

My case of BGA was from memory when I had low nitrates below 10ppm and maybe lower ph than normal.

 

[jarrod0987]

Algae loves low Alkalinity. Use baking soda to boost it but don't add too much at once, do it slow over a few days. Iron is one of those ones that should be in the 0.0 range if I remember but I wouldn't worry about it. It usually binds to organic waste and is chemically out of the picture. Boost your alk to 7dKH (125 ppm) and get rid of phosphates. That should work like magic. If it doesn't maybe look further into Iron then.

 

[Fresh2o]

Algae loves low Alkalinity. Use baking soda to boost it but don't add too much at once, do it slow over a few days. Iron is one of those ones that should be in the 0.0 range if I remember but I wouldn't worry about it. It usually binds to organic waste and is chemically out of the picture. Boost your alk to 7dKH (125 ppm) and get rid of phosphates. That should work like magic. If it doesn't maybe look further into Iron then.

Zero iron and no phosphates is not ideal in a planted tank.


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[Delapool]

Zero iron and no phosphates is not ideal in a planted tank.


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Yeah, pretty much got the same question - especially once into co2 injection.

I get that algal blooms occur in the rivers here and are said to be due to high nitrates/phosphates from land use.

But light and maybe ammonia/nitrates are what seems to drive my algal issues. I dose ferts so my plants can out-compete the algae. Which seems the basis of EI dosing?

But I'm a mere beginner so this is just my observations and questions.

 

[aqua_chem]

Liebig's Law of the Minimum

Particularly:

iebig's law of the minimum, often simply called Liebig's law or the law of the minimum, is a principle developed in agricultural science by Carl Sprengel (1828) and later popularized by Justus von Liebig. It states that growth is controlled not by the total amount of resources available, but by the scarcest resource (limiting factor).

Essentially, an aquarium and a stream/lake a extremely different ecosystems, both from a plant perspective and a basic ecologic standpoint. In most streams/lakes, phosphate is a major limiting factor with how well plants can grow, whereas in aquariums it's almost always in excess. Take this article that I just plucked from a google search. Average nitrate levels in lakes were <4 ppm and phosphate .15 ppm (using some assumptions). CO2, on the other hand, is generally available in somewhat larger amounts than most tanks, where either it or light are often the limiting factors. Plants tend to not care so much about the exact level of nutrients, ie 1 ppm vs 5 ppm phosphate, as long as one isn't 0 and therefore limiting. What gets you into trouble in natural ecosystems is when phosphate should be limiting, but then the local chemical plant dumps a boatload of it into a stream and suddenly the entire ecosystem is unbalanced. Suddenly other factors become limiting and algae can bloom out of control.

EI is based on the idea that all ferts and CO2 is non-limiting, while light is limiting, which allows plants to better compete against algae, which can survive better in nutrient-limited environments than plants.

 

[jenelle]

Aqua Chem: Would you advise, then, that a pressurized system with EI (dry ferts) is the best route to take if I want to keep my fluval LED light? Would I get to grow more interesting plants and control the algae?

 

[aqua_chem]

I would always say that a pressurized system and EI is the best way to go about basically anything in the planted tank work.



But that being said, best and necessary are two different beasts. If BGA is the only real speedbump you've had so far, I would say that only basic alterations are needed right now, as BGA, unlike some other forms of algae, can be caused by a one time mistake and not be a symptom of some more profound dysfunction like BBA or GSA. It sounds like you're underdosing macronutrients pretty severely, but that's a $15 fix with EI as mentioned before, and 100% EI might be overkill. DIY CO2 is a GREAT way to get a foot in the door with more advanced plant keeping, and if it's working and you're willing to put the work in to keep it running, I would stick with that for now. No reason to change too many things at once.


Unless you happen to have $200-300 burning a hole in your pocket, in which case there is no better way to spend it, in the planted world at least.

 

[jenelle]

Thank Aqua_Chem. I'll try not to bother you after this: I have the citric acid/bicarbonate in pop bottles set up. It's okay, but not great. I get very frustrated trying to regulate the bubbles. Speeds up, slows down to nothing; it has a very inconsistent dial. I get by with it, but also I've not been able to grow anything beyond the really basic plants (and I usually tear them all out due to algae every few months.)

When you say I'm underdosing, do you mean I'm under utilizing Flourish? (I'm following the directions)... how could I improve that if I stick with my finicky C02 system for now.

I'm not going to jump into a pressurized CO2 but I'm sorely tempted when I get another couple paychecks. I'm thinking of this sort of system - easy to set up for equipment-phobic people.
Complete CO2 Systems | CO2 Regulator - PH Controller - Cylinder
Does anyone of those systems appeal?

Thanks for your expertise.

 

[jenelle]

I guess the long and the short of it is that I'm willing to spend more money to get a set up that doesn't involve me pulling out my hair trying to deal with algae, BGA and sitting by the tank for half an hour every few days trying to get the bubble counter right. I am realizing you get what you pay for - my canister seems miles easier than the 2 HOB filters I was battling.

I want to admire and enjoy my tank more and stress about it less! I'm either going all in or getting all out.

nuf said!

 

[RedDevil83]

You have to have a passion about taking care of your fish in order to keep them happy. But from what I've learned you don't need to go the length others say. If they swim fine and you have clear water and don't over feed you'll be fine. I mean think about how people did it a long time ago, all this new technology and testing. Just do what I do and follow the basics.


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