Can the nitrogen cycle get started without ammonia?

[guinea]

I'm confused about the policy of some fish stores of having your filter running for 5-10 days before adding fish. (Forget about fishless cycling for a second, since most newbies don't have the patience for that.) I had this conversation with a pet store employee:

Me: How long do I need to wait before adding fish to a new tank?
Employee: 5-10 days with the filter running.
Me: Why? I thought it was only 24 hours so that the temperature can stabilize and the water can get well oxygenated.
Employee: Its because it takes at least 5 days for the nitrogen cycle to get started.
Me: But how can the nitrogen cycle get started without a source of ammonia?
Employee: There's airborne bacteria that gets into the tank and gets it started.

??????
Is this true?

 

[Fishdude3233]

Heck no,

You should do a fish less cycle best for the fish, and it only takes about 3-4 weeks. Or contact mr. Fisher and he can send you a sponge that is already seeded (has bb (good bacteria) on it) and it would cycle instantly

 

[Fishdude3233]

Ammonia has to be present because that is what the bacteria eats to reproduce if you will..

 

[Caliban07]

I'm confused about the policy of some fish stores of having your filter running for 5-10 days before adding fish. (Forget about fishless cycling for a second, since most newbies don't have the patience for that.) I had this conversation with a pet store employee:

Me: How long do I need to wait before adding fish to a new tank?
Employee: 5-10 days with the filter running.
Me: Why? I thought it was only 24 hours so that the temperature can stabilize and the water can get well oxygenated.
Employee: Its because it takes at least 5 days for the nitrogen cycle to get started.
Me: But how can the nitrogen cycle get started without a source of ammonia?
Employee: There's airborne bacteria that gets into the tank and gets it started.

??????
Is this true?

Technically this is true. This bacteria he is talking about is known as the heterotrophic bacteria. This bacteria is responsible for the breakdown of organic matter in the tank like rotting fish food and plants, dead fish etc.

Since there a minuscule amounts of carbon in tap water then this would be broken down in to ammonia.

This would start the cycle on a ridiculously small scale. It would definitely not finish it or build up enough bacteria required to keep ammonia and nitrite down to 0.

You need a source of ammonia and for that I use fish. How you decide is up to you.

 

[Fishdude3233]

Wow learn something new every day....

 

[Fishdude3233]

I'm surprised the employe knew about this.....

 

[mrvincent]

IMO a fishless cycle without ammonia will work a little bit, but you'll see a mini-cycle when you introduce new fishs...

My QT tank is now empty and if I add fishs to it ammonia still read 0.

I think for brand new setup you'll need a little drop of ammonia to kick start the cycle.


When I first cycled my 29g fishless, I had ammonia readings, probably coming from the substrate, so the cycle done well.

 

[enrgizerbunny]

Technically this is true. This bacteria he is talking about is known as the heterotrophic bacteria. This bacteria is responsible for the breakdown of organic matter in the tank like rotting fish food and plants, dead fish etc.

Since there a minuscule amounts of carbon in tap water then this would be broken down in to ammonia.

This would start the cycle on a ridiculously small scale. It would definitely not finish it or build up enough bacteria required to keep ammonia and nitrite down to 0.

You need a source of ammonia and for that I use fish. How you decide is up to you.

Carbon cannot become ammonia. Perhaps some other things, but not carbon. Dead bacteria and dead phytoplankton and dead zooplankton could be broken down into ammonia after the chlorine has been eliminated, but the amount would be negligible.

Ammonia (NH3) and Ammonium (NH4) are your two sources of nitrogen in the cycle. One set of bacteria breaks down the NH3/NH4 into Nitrite(NO2). Then, a second set of bacteria break down the NO2 into nitrate(NO3). Nitrite and nitrate are both less deadly than ammonium, which is less deadly than ammonia. Nitrite can be just as deadly as ammonia in hard water, but in general it is less deadly. Nitrate is deadly as well, but it requires much higher concentrations relative to ammonia and nitrite.

Sent from my SCH-I435 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[mrvincent]

Carbon cannot become ammonia. Perhaps some other things, but not carbon. Dead bacteria and dead phytoplankton and dead zooplankton could be broken down into ammonia after the chlorine has been eliminated, but the amount would be negligible.

Ammonia (NH3) and Ammonium (NH4) are your two sources of nitrogen in the cycle. One set of bacteria breaks down the NH3/NH4 into Nitrite(NO2). Then, a second set of bacteria break down the NO2 into nitrate(NO3). Nitrite and nitrate are both less deadly than ammonium, which is less deadly than ammonia. Nitrite can be just as deadly as ammonia in hard water, but in general it is less deadly. Nitrate is deadly as well, but it requires much higher concentrations relative to ammonia and nitrite.

Sent from my SCH-I435 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

Carbon is made of "C" and ammonia of "N and Hs"

 

[Caliban07]

Yes sorry. Organic compounds would be consumed as an energy source? What is the chemical process for producing ammonia by heterotrophs?

There would still be trace amounts of ammonia in city tap water which would technically start the cycle also although I know it would be minuscule. I'm just saying the cycle would begin.

 

[mrvincent]

Yes sorry. Organic compounds would be consumed as an energy source? What is the chemical process for producing ammonia by heterotrophs?

There would still be trace amounts of ammonia in city tap water which would technically start the cycle also although I know it would be minuscule. I'm just saying the cycle would begin.

Food contains phosphates (PO4), Hydrogen (H), and Carbon (C). Water contains Nitrogen (N), and all other things we can find into air like O2, CO2.

Hetetrotrophics take the food, break it down. So it combine O2 from the water, remove a Nitrogen (dissolved air) from the water and Hydrogen --> NH3 or NH4 (Ammonia/ammonium depending on PH) as waste.

The carbon is the energy source and food that is absorbed by heterotropgics bacteria, so the remaining Carbon atom from the reaction go INTO the bacteria. The bacteria is made of carbon... I wish I'm right, but it seems logics for me... Thoses heterotrophics bacterias are made like humans from Carbon, but breath too, so they combine an C atom with two O to form CO2.

I forgot to tell about what happen to the remaining PO4, it's probably released direct to the water column waiting to be consumed by algae/plants.

 

[threnjen]

Well I agree that Caliban is technically correct. As in, there is a MINISCULE amount of ammonia in most tap water, and therefore the cycle will TECHNICALLY begin. however that amount is so small as to be laughable.

So while correct in the most technical sense I would say that the pet store employee is incorrect, because he/she is most certainly thinking/understanding on a much different scale than "negligible". For practical purposes (and the way we teach it here), running the tank is not doing anything. It might mean the difference between having 4 bacteria instead of 1 (out of millions)

 

[BBradbury]

Nitrifying Bacteria

I'm confused about the policy of some fish stores of having your filter running for 5-10 days before adding fish. (Forget about fishless cycling for a second, since most newbies don't have the patience for that.) I had this conversation with a pet store employee:

Me: How long do I need to wait before adding fish to a new tank?
Employee: 5-10 days with the filter running.
Me: Why? I thought it was only 24 hours so that the temperature can stabilize and the water can get well oxygenated.
Employee: Its because it takes at least 5 days for the nitrogen cycle to get started.
Me: But how can the nitrogen cycle get started without a source of ammonia?
Employee: There's airborne bacteria that gets into the tank and gets it started.

??????
Is this true?

Hello guin...

Your pet shop person is pretty close. But, the person left out a source of ammonia. The nitrifying bacteria is in the air, but the cycling process can only begin if the bacteria mixes with ammonia. The easiest way is to have a few small fish in the tank to provide a steady source of ammonia in the form of their waste. Bacteria mixes with the ammonia produced by the dissolving waste and makes a home on every surface inside the tank. The little microscopic bugs use the ammonia and produce nitrite. A less toxic form of nitrogen. The little nitrite bugs produce nitrates, an even less toxic form of nitrogen. You, as the water keeper, remove the nitrates by removing and replacing the tank water. So, the water stays pure for the fish.

B

 

[mrvincent]

Anyways, to kick start nitrogen cycle IMO you need a hardy fish or pure ammonia for dosing.

I like to use my GF betta to cycle new tanks. He survived so many cycles, and he's still healty. I feed it until he stop eating. If there's a little flake remaining, I let it degrade into water, the betta eat it later anyways...

 

[Caliban07]

Food contains phosphates (PO4), Hydrogen (H), and Carbon (C). Water contains Nitrogen (N), and all other things we can find into air like O2, CO2.

Hetetrotrophics take the food, break it down. So it combine O2 from the water, remove a Nitrogen (dissolved air) from the water and Hydrogen --> NH3 or NH4 (Ammonia/ammonium depending on PH) as waste.

The carbon is the energy source and food that is absorbed by heterotropgics bacteria, so the remaining Carbon atom from the reaction go INTO the bacteria. The bacteria is made of carbon... I wish I'm right, but it seems logics for me... Thoses heterotrophics bacterias are made like humans from Carbon, but breath too, so they combine an C atom with two O to form CO2.

I forgot to tell about what happen to the remaining PO4, it's probably released direct to the water column waiting to be consumed by algae/plants.

Thanks mr Vincent I am going to have to look in to this. Yes I was being technical threnjen what i meant to add is that the person in the fish shop wasn't thinking like this and was probably giving bad advice and also not to take my advice as a the go ahead to add fish in this instance but I was driving home from work.

 

[Cynic]

I'm surprised the employe knew about this.....

My money is they didn't and just thought having your filter running for a few days would do the job.

Or they just thought that such advice was the quickest way to get the poster to buy fish.

 

[Caliban07]

Well you would think that would you!

CYNIC:
a person who believes that people are motivated purely by self-interest rather than acting for honourable or unselfish reasons.

Lol had to be done

 

[threnjen]

Thanks mr Vincent I am going to have to look in to this. Yes I was being technical threnjen what i meant to add is that the person in the fish shop wasn't thinking like this and was probably giving bad advice and also not to take my advice as a the go ahead to add fish in this instance but I was driving home from work.

Oh yeah don't worry I was agreeing with you and expanding on what I was sure your point was.

 

[Caliban07]

Oh yeah don't worry I was agreeing with you and expanding on what I was sure your point was.

I know