changing water

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Rmferber

Aquarium Advice Newbie
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
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3
Location
Omaha, NE
I have a tough question and so I'm going to give all the background info and see if you guys can help me at all.


My city has very hard water, I think at least a PH of 8. I have a semi planted tank, it is a 20 gallon with 2 good sized swords, a lot of anacharis, a marimo ball, some green and white acorus, mondo grass and new bacopa and banana plant. Anyway, in the tank I had an opaline gourami, 4 corys, 2 otocinclus, a few platies and a bumblebee cat. I almost never change my water, but I top it off very regularly so I don't hear the water falling. I know that's not ideal, but I'm trying to give background info. So 2 times now when I did a larger water change, all of my fish got very sick and 1/2 or more died. The first time was a couple months ago, about a 40% water change, and the second time was a few days ago, I hadn't been topping it off and I added about 4 gallons. And then my new dwarf cichlid, 3 platies, 2 otos, a bumblebee cat, and a cory died.
What would cause this? My only thoughts are that either my water conditioner is crappy, or that the plants have softened the water so much that adding my city's hard water shocked the fish. These are all hardy fish though, that recently made it through an ich breakout and tolerate my complete lack of water changes.
Any thoughts? It is really disappointing when I finally decide to do a minimum of tank maintenance and my fish all croak, especially that blue ram.

Thanks,

Rachael
 
Ok, first off you need to know what the pH of the tap water is and not guess. The correct way to test the pH of the tap water is to fill a glass with tap water and let it sit out for at least 12 hours then test the pH. Also the Acorus and Mondo grass ARE NOT AQUATIC PLANTS, they are going to die no matter what you do.

If you do truly have hard water then your lack of water changes and your topping off the tank with tap water are causing a steady upward climb of the pH and the hardness of the water. When water evaporates it leaves behind the mineral content. Then what happens is when you do a large water change you are causing a large drop in the pH and in the hardness as well as the Total Dissolved Solids, this is VERY HARD on the fish.

It's possible that your water conditioner is only made to treat chlorine and your water contains chloramines, this could cause the fish die off. Or it could be that you are not getting the temperature of the new water close to the tank temp. You can't blame this one on the plants. It seems you have no idea of what your water parameters are in either the tank or the tap. I doubt you even own a test kit of any kind. I doubt you have the slightest idea that the whole problem lies not in the fact that there are plants in your tank This portion of your post has been edited as it is in direct violation of the UA you agreed to when you registered with this site. Future violations of the UA could result in revocation of your posting privelages. BTW, Rams are pretty delicate fish. The fact that you had an Ich outbreak tells me that you are not quarantining your new fish, your tank conditions are lousy, and in short you really should not IMHO own a fish tank. This portion of your post has been edited as it is in direct violation of the UA you agreed to when you registered with this site. Future violations of the UA could result in revocation of your posting privelages.

I would say more but this is a family forum and I don't want to upset the Admins. You might think I'm being harsh on you. That's because you come from a sheltered background. I telling the truth as I see it.

Maybe you are just lazy, maybe you don't know any better, but I doubt that's the case as you admit that you know you should be doing regular water changes. So I guess it pretty much breaks down to lazy. Perhaps you should break down the tank and take it to the local community center so the kids can learn and enjoy.
 
Too late, already upset the admins! :wink:

I agree that the water changes are hard on the fish when none have been done, but I don't think this is cause to leave the hobby! :? I appreciate you giving the full story, and recognize that you want to do things better so you won't have this happen again. What Rex has posted is absolutely right in regard to why you are having problems with the tank, but I do think you can fix this and get things back on track.

I'll move this over to General Discussion, since the problems do not really relate to the plants.
 
I totally agree with Rex. Water changes and test kits are like the most important things. Sit down and read some nice long aquarium books and learn something decent before you torture your fish by your lack of care.
 
Well, that is why Rmferber has come here - I am sure I am not the only one who looks back on early days in the hobby and regrets some of my fishkeeping mistakes.
 
Sit down and read some nice long aquarium books and learn something decent before you torture your fish by your lack of care.
Woah!! Somebody needs a time out. This is not the way we speak to other members.

[center:cca2d39d86] :smilecolros: Welcome to AA, Rmferber!! :n00b: [/center:cca2d39d86]

Having been a newbie once myself, I totally understand what you are going through. First, you need to buy a test kit for ammonia, pH, nitrites, nitrates, and hardness. The liquid tests are better than strips. There are Master Test kits available with all the tests (a few Master kits don't come with the nitrite test!!, so you will need to purchase that separately).
So 2 times now when I did a larger water change, all of my fish got very sick and 1/2 or more died. The first time was a couple months ago, about a 40% water change, and the second time was a few days ago, I hadn't been topping it off and I added about 4 gallons. And then my new dwarf cichlid, 3 platies, 2 otos, a bumblebee cat, and a cory died.
The problem is the water changes. Your fish got used to the conditions of the tank and when fresh water was given to them, they went into shock and died. Also, you do not have the hardiest of fish. Dwarf cichlids, cories and otos really need good water quality to survive.
The good thing is you found this site and are ready to do proper tank maintenance. What fish are left?
 
Welcome, rmferber.

First, please do not go away because of the "strong" initial reaction to your post. We are here to help you, and realize that many people manage to keep fish without treating them with the care that some of us try to maintain.

Second, a regimen of small water changes should go a long way towards addressing your problem. I would suggest 10% changes once a week. Also, if you are topping off your tank, i would do so with RO water (from your grocery store, if they have dispensers, and get a 3-gallon jug) to avoid buildup of minerals.

I hope this helps, and as Menagerie said, you are trying to keep some delicate fish, so don't run away, there are many helpful people on this forum. Even when people are being hot-headed, if you read between the lines, they are still trying to be helpful!

Good luck, and maybe some more exchanges here can make you and your tank happier!
 
This portion of your post has been edited as it is in direct violation of the UA you agreed to when you registered with this site. Future violations of the UA could result in revocation of your posting privelages.. take a chill.... everyone makes mistakes.


you were not very nice.
 
As I see it, fishkeeping is one big fat learning process. For every aquarist who has the time and money and energy to pursue all the levels of complexities of this hobby, there are 10,000 aquarists who get a tank set up one day and feed the fish daily and hope for the best.

Running into a problem or a need and desire for information leads people to this website. It's what led me to this website. It's what led Rmferber to this website. Is there anyone using this site that doesn't know lots and lots and lots of people get aquariums and do very little upkeep of it? I've used this site and some other sites and the fish store to walk me through, baby-step by baby-step, the learning process.

Lots of people don't take aquarium-keeping hyper-seriously. And lots of people, like myself, and looking for clues and deciding how much time and money and complexity they can handle.

Rmferber uses water conditioner, changes the water some, bothered to offer live plants to environment.

There's ALWAYS more each of us can do to make the aquarium environment better. Slamming one person because that person is at a different level of understanding is obviously not intended to educate; it it intended to put someone down This portion of your post has been edited as it is in direct violation of the UA you agreed to when you registered with this site. Future violations of the UA could result in revocation of your posting privelages.

Okay. Done with that.

The EASIEST first steps to take might be to get and use a pH test kit. Measuring the pH of your aquarium water and then your tap water is super easy, takes literally less than five minutes. PH test kits are sold in most any kind of pet supply place. A kit should cost less than five dollars.

As already stated, making sure the water conditioner you use treats for both chlorine AND chloramine in water is super important. San Francisco only recently began adding chloramine to the water supply, and apparently the chloramine untreated from the tap is lethal. If the conditioner you have treats for chloramine as well, it should be very clearly stated on the bottle. They usually if not always advertise this prominently.

It is truly just as important to begin testing for the ammonia, nitrate, etc levels, too. I just began doing this real regularly only recently. And, honestly, it took me a while to understand what I was testing for... (okay, I am still trying to completely understand it all) (okay, I do this PRETTY regularly). I will say that whatever water-testing tasks you are willing to take on right now or soon, there are knowledgeable, This portion of your post has been edited as it is in direct violation of the UA you agreed to when you registered with this site. Future violations of the UA could result in revocation of your posting privelages. on this site that will happily interpret the results and offer guidance if you post the results on this site.

PS what is a bumblebee cat? Never heard of it...maybe i'll do a search. Sounds hecka cute.
 
Wow what a mature enviornment. Rex isnt attacking Rmferber he is helping, in his oppinion. You people are the ones who are attacking Rex. "hottheaded", "what crawled up your butt and died", "egocentricbuttheads", "Look at me, look at how much I know". That sounds like attacking to me.
 
You people are the ones who are attacking Rex. "hottheaded", "what crawled up your butt and died", "egocentricbuttheads", "Look at me, look at how much I know". That sounds like attacking to me.

Your right on that point ;) Howver, none of it is allowed here. I have no problem with the tell it like it is brand of advice, it can sometimes be hard on the reader to take, but it is what it is, however....there is no need for insults. All they do is close the mind of the insulted party, they do not remember the good advice, all they remember is you treated them poorly.
 
Rex Grigg said:
Ok, first off you need to know what the pH of the tap water is and not guess. The correct way to test the pH of the tap water is to fill a glass with tap water and let it sit out for at least 12 hours then test the pH. Also the Acorus and Mondo grass ARE NOT AQUATIC PLANTS, they are going to die no matter what you do.

If you do truly have hard water then your lack of water changes and your topping off the tank with tap water are causing a steady upward climb of the pH and the hardness of the water. When water evaporates it leaves behind the mineral content. Then what happens is when you do a large water change you are causing a large drop in the pH and in the hardness as well as the Total Dissolved Solids, this is VERY HARD on the fish.

It's possible that your water conditioner is only made to treat chlorine and your water contains chloramines, this could cause the fish die off. Or it could be that you are not getting the temperature of the new water close to the tank temp. You can't blame this one on the plants.

The mods should have just edited RexGrigg's post to end here because this is where the advice (good advice, I might add) ended. :?

People who post to this site - even newbies who kill their fish out of sheer ignorance - are under no obligation to sit there and take abuse.
At best, they will ignore good solid advice because it is rudely dispensed.
At worst, they won't come back and continue to make the same mistakes over and over again.
On sites like this, people skills and communication skills are just as important as subject knowledge!

Rachael, IF you have come back, please take RexGrigg's advice about the water changes. I would also add that the nitrates in the tank most likely became elevated over time and that your fish slowly adapted. The large water change probably caused a sharp drop in nitrates which may have also led to the fish' demise. AS Menageria said, get test kits for GH, pH, NH3, NO2, and NO3 and do 20% partial water changes at least every two weeks (more often is much better).
 
Advice is one thing, blunt or not.

Insults are another, and have no place here. Why get so emotional about helping people get better results with their tanks?
 
OK, thanks for all the advice, and I would like to maybe help clarify things a bit more. I have test kits, but I can't read them very well as I am color blind. Because I didn't know the exact parameters of my water, I didn't post them.
Rex was right with his guess about the water conditioner though, which makes me just want to kick myself because I know that Omaha (where I live) has chloramine and I always buy the right conditioner. But in Manhattan, ks, where I go to school, they don't have chloramine and I used my "college water conditioner" instead of my "Omaha water conditioner" A really dumb mistake.
I know you all think that I'm an idiot newbie, but I do have/have had quite a few tanks and I have a really pretty good understanding of how everything in aquariums work, I just don't use the information to take the best care of my fish. It is difficult in a dorm setting.
I also understand the desire to sometimes tell off a new person who is not doing things the accepted way, I've done it myself before on other forums (for small animals, I can't seem to get that worked up about my fish)
For the person asking about the bumblebee cat, there is a picture of one here: http://explore80.tripod.com/bukittimah/bumblebeecatfish.jpg . I think they're pretty cute, I got mine at Petsmart a year ago, I actually got a couple so I still have one.
As for the acorus and mondo grass, what setting would they do best in if not as true aquatics?
My apologies for being stupid and inflaming the more experienced members,

Rachael
 
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