Chemistry, angelfish

[Kelly5978]

I've posted similar questions in the past, and done enough research that I should be an expert. However, when I start seeing my angelfish losing color, getting pinholes in their top fins, etc...I can't ever figure out the problem.
Here are my questions:
Could nitrates be causing my angelfish to get pinholes in their fins? I thought they were just picking at each other, causing little indents here and there on each others sides. But, now my favorite has a tiny hole in his dorsal. It started as a black dot, and a hole appeared in the center. My purigen always kept my nitrates at 5. After a recharge during medication, I can't get the nitrates under 10.

Could copper cause the problems in question 1? I stupidly used coppersafe a month ago for ich. I changed the water and put the recharged purigen back after 10 days. I've done weekly water changes since. The fish never had any reaction to the coppersafe, but could it be hurting them now?

Do others use carbon in their filters? I used an ammonia/carbon after the coppersafe, while the purigen was charging (they are in 2 different filters on the tank). I just realized its still in there. I've heard horror stories about carbon, and just wanted different people's opinions.
I understand that my kh will fluctuate, but it's never been so low. Is there a certain number that is too low? I know my ph is determined by kh/gh, so at what point do I need to worry about a crash?

I've tried many different methods to soften my water for the angelfish. I have driftwood (but the purigen takes out the tannins). I use barely any tap water because mine is so hard. I use 1/3 tap, 1/3 distilled, 1/3 drinking RO. Frankly, the fish were all growing and happy with this mix, so Im not worried that its still quite hard. My question is: if I match any replacement water, then why do my numbers keep changing? For instance, how can the mineral content of my water change, if all other variables remained the same? I'm not stupid, I just can't seem to grasp how all of the water variables come together, and I'm afraid I will miss something that will harm my fish.

My rams tried to mate, in spite of the hard water, about 3 weeks ago. I assume their eggs were eaten. Why haven't they tried again?

Sorry for the long post. I'm just hoping that anyone with knowledge about any of these matters might help. I really love this hobby, and hope to learn as much as I can to keep my fish friends happy and healthy!
My 55g has:
0 ammonia/nitrites
10-20 nitrates
7.4 ph
5 kh
10 gh
The following fish occupy the tank:
5 adolescent angelfish
2 (pair) German blue rams
1 Bolivian ram
2 denison barbs
1 bala shark (yes, I know he will have to be re-homed in the future)
As of now, the angels are all under 3", the dbarbs are 2", rams are under2", and the bala is 2-3".

 

[AngelFishGirl]

I've posted similar questions in the past, and done enough research that I should be an expert. However, when I start seeing my angelfish losing color, getting pinholes in their top fins, etc...I can't ever figure out the problem.
Here are my questions:
Could nitrates be causing my angelfish to get pinholes in their fins? I thought they were just picking at each other, causing little indents here and there on each others sides. But, now my favorite has a tiny hole in his dorsal. It started as a black dot, and a hole appeared in the center. My purigen always kept my nitrates at 5. After a recharge during medication, I can't get the nitrates under 10.

Could copper cause the problems in question 1? I stupidly used coppersafe a month ago for ich. I changed the water and put the recharged purigen back after 10 days. I've done weekly water changes since. The fish never had any reaction to the coppersafe, but could it be hurting them now?

Do others use carbon in their filters? I used an ammonia/carbon after the coppersafe, while the purigen was charging (they are in 2 different filters on the tank). I just realized its still in there. I've heard horror stories about carbon, and just wanted different people's opinions.
I understand that my kh will fluctuate, but it's never been so low. Is there a certain number that is too low? I know my ph is determined by kh/gh, so at what point do I need to worry about a crash?

I've tried many different methods to soften my water for the angelfish. I have driftwood (but the purigen takes out the tannins). I use barely any tap water because mine is so hard. I use 1/3 tap, 1/3 distilled, 1/3 drinking RO. Frankly, the fish were all growing and happy with this mix, so Im not worried that its still quite hard. My question is: if I match any replacement water, then why do my numbers keep changing? For instance, how can the mineral content of my water change, if all other variables remained the same? I'm not stupid, I just can't seem to grasp how all of the water variables come together, and I'm afraid I will miss something that will harm my fish.

My rams tried to mate, in spite of the hard water, about 3 weeks ago. I assume their eggs were eaten. Why haven't they tried again?

Sorry for the long post. I'm just hoping that anyone with knowledge about any of these matters might help. I really love this hobby, and hope to learn as much as I can to keep my fish friends happy and healthy!
My 55g has:
0 ammonia/nitrites
10-20 nitrates
7.4 ph
5 kh
10 gh
The following fish occupy the tank:
5 adolescent angelfish
2 (pair) German blue rams
1 Bolivian ram
2 denison barbs
1 bala shark (yes, I know he will have to be re-homed in the future)
As of now, the angels are all under 3", the dbarbs are 2", rams are under2", and the bala is 2-3".

I can only answer some of your questions... sorry! i'll help with what i can!
Nitrates cause deformities in fish, but at 10-20 I wouldn't think that's the problem. I would think the pairing rams would be the culprits. They get highly aggressive while mating. I would suggest putting a divider in the tank to separate them.
Another culprit could be the barbs! If i'm not mistaken, all barbs need to be schooling. Barbs are fin nippers. They need a school of at least 7 to keep the aggression amongst themselves. I personally have no experience with those barbs, but I'm pretty sure even if they don't need to school they are still going to be fin nipping.

Is your tank cycled? You are reading 0 nitrite correct?

 

[Mebbid]

I've never heard of either nitrates or copper causing a pinhole in any fish's fins. Also, the horror studies about exhausted carbon are vastly overstated. It will basically become extra filter media after its exhausted.

I am in agreement that the rams are likely the culprit. Both angels and rams are scrappy fish and will get banged up now and again. Just keep an eye on the hole and if it starts to spread towards the fish then its possibly fin rot. Keep in mine though that a hole in a fin will usually end up with the fin tearing all the way to the outside edge.

I can't answer why your rams haven't tried breeding again but they might just be taking some time before trying again. They can be a finicky fish.

 

[Kelly5978]

Thank so much! I'm getting a tank divider today! That's the perfect advice! Then the rams may try to breed again, and the angels can heal! Again, I love the great help I get here! Thx! Oh, do I have to leave the rams much room? They never left the little corner when they were defending the castle. But I don't want them scrunched!
I really hope my fav angel doesn't lose his dorsal fin. Wouldn't he die? The other one had a hole about 2 months ago, but I just kept the water clean and it healed!

 

[AngelFishGirl]

someone's angel on here (forgot who it was :/) who lost its dorsal fin due to extremely rough breeding angels. They will survive. It grows back.

 

[Mebbid]

Fins thankfully repair very quickly

 

[AngelFishGirl]

If you're really concerned, I believe Melafix fixes damaged fins. You could QT and dose Melafix, but IMO, it's not necessary since they will grow back on their own with clean water.

 

[Kelly5978]

Angel girl and everyone else...now I'm actually worried! One of my angels didn't come up for food. She was sleeping, but it's still unusual. Then, I noticed her bottom fin is torn a little, and she has either peck marks, or something worse on both sides of her. I already divided the tank. This has developed since then! I'm going to put pictures on my profile under the title: sassy (her name). I've read that ph can crash after a purigen recharge. I'm out of liquid ph test til morning. The recharge of the purigen is the only recent thing aside from the tank divider to keep the rams at bay! I'm so disappointed, as I thought I finally had a great fish tank. Now....

 

[Mebbid]

Angel girl and everyone else...now I'm actually worried! One of my angels didn't come up for food. She was sleeping, but it's still unusual. Then, I noticed her bottom fin is torn a little, and she has either peck marks, or something worse on both sides of her. I already divided the tank. This has developed since then! I'm going to put pictures on my profile under the title: sassy (her name). I've read that ph can crash after a purigen recharge. I'm out of liquid ph test til morning. The recharge of the purigen is the only recent thing aside from the tank divider to keep the rams at bay! I'm so disappointed, as I thought I finally had a great fish tank. Now....

The pH crash of purigen is an old product flaw caused by soaking it in a buffering solution which used to be part of the instructions that came with it. It has since been remedied and the directions telling you to use a buffering solution has been removed and there are no longer any issues with pH crashes caused by purigen.

They are likely just peck marks from fighting. I saw my friend's angels that are usually best friends get into a huge fight and beat each other half to death and then went right back to being best buds.

 

[Kelly5978]

Okay. I will just watch her closely. Her and the one with the pin hole in top fin started using their long bottom fins to kinda flick ot their regular bottom fin (like their trying to wipe something off. Angelfish are finicky and weird! Wish I didn't love them so much! None of my other tanks give me so much trouble . This was my dream tank, and I've had such good luck so far....I'm probably just over-worrying. What's new. I don't think I'll ever really understand the ph thing, but as long as no ones dead, I won't mess with it. If there was a point where the fish were acting weird, and I tested water, and the ph had really jumped (up or down), what is the best way to deal with it. (That's the reason for my ph questions. I get that stability is more important than the number, so I worried last week when it jumped from 7.6 to 8.2, the down to 7.4 in a 3 day period. I test replacement water. I match it perfectly. I'll never understand how or why it fluctuates, but I just want to know what to do in an urgent situation. I heard baking soda would make the water harder...which I DON'T want. Just wondered what the best way to handle an emergency is). Thx!

 

[Wiggles24]

Angelfish are incredibly hardy i wouldn't worry so much!

 

[Kelly5978]

Haha...me not worry??? That's all I know how to do! My worst character flaw. But, thx to my friends here, I'm slowly learning to watch and wait! Sooooo hard.

 

[Skifflexie]

Okay. I will just watch her closely. Her and the one with the pin hole in top fin started using their long bottom fins to kinda flick ot their regular bottom fin (like their trying to wipe something off. Angelfish are finicky and weird! Wish I didn't love them so much! None of my other tanks give me so much trouble . This was my dream tank, and I've had such good luck so far....I'm probably just over-worrying. What's new. I don't think I'll ever really understand the ph thing, but as long as no ones dead, I won't mess with it. If there was a point where the fish were acting weird, and I tested water, and the ph had really jumped (up or down), what is the best way to deal with it. (That's the reason for my ph questions. I get that stability is more important than the number, so I worried last week when it jumped from 7.6 to 8.2, the down to 7.4 in a 3 day period. I test replacement water. I match it perfectly. I'll never understand how or why it fluctuates, but I just want to know what to do in an urgent situation. I heard baking soda would make the water harder...which I DON'T want. Just wondered what the best way to handle an emergency is). Thx!

Are you testing the water at the same time of day roughly? I've heard that ph tends to go through mini cycles daily, especially if there are plants in the tank... I'm by for no expert but maybe try checking water parameters at the same time every day.

 

[Kelly5978]

Thanks for the feedback. I do test the water at roughly the same time every night, but I will try to make it more exact. I find myself dreading water change day, because I'm afraid to mess the water up. I test the replacement water to match it, but I do fear that ph swings are the root of my problems. Either that, or I never completely rid the tank of the ich and/or the coppersafe. I just can't see why else my fish keep getting holes in their fin. The baby lace angel very likely has fin rot. Her tail is outlined in black and ragged. The pinhole in her dorsal is bigger today. My water test today concluded 0 ammonia/nitrites, 5-10 nitrates (so the purigen must be working and my water change 2 days ago helped), ph-7.2, kh-6, gh-8. I use novaqua for water changes because I like the added electrolytes. I don't use anything else! So, I can't think of any other reason these fish are having issues (after 2-3 months of living together without problems). I don't understand the ph thing, and I am too afraid to use chemicals to keep it steady (that's why I cut my water with a little tap...for the stability...even though are water is so hard). I guess I'll just take everyone's advise and try to stop worrying. I just hoped for opinions with this thread, and appreciate the feedback. Oh, I don't have any live plants in my tanks yet, but hopefully will get that going soon if mebbid doesn't block me first for bugging him for help all the time! Lol

 

[bob mccoy]

kelly -- ph is not a problem with most angel fish now days they are bread in 7.5 to 8.5 water . all my tanks have different ph in each one . i find its more harmful to keep adjusting and changing up and down. i have found with drift wood in my tanks it helps keep it a stable ph most of the time. Aquarium pH Conditioners: Proper pH Water Conditioner

check on this or u can leave it as is and im sure your fine

 

[Mebbid]

Thanks for the feedback. I do test the water at roughly the same time every night, but I will try to make it more exact. I find myself dreading water change day, because I'm afraid to mess the water up. I test the replacement water to match it, but I do fear that ph swings are the root of my problems. Either that, or I never completely rid the tank of the ich and/or the coppersafe. I just can't see why else my fish keep getting holes in their fin. The baby lace angel very likely has fin rot. Her tail is outlined in black and ragged. The pinhole in her dorsal is bigger today. My water test today concluded 0 ammonia/nitrites, 5-10 nitrates (so the purigen must be working and my water change 2 days ago helped), ph-7.2, kh-6, gh-8. I use novaqua for water changes because I like the added electrolytes. I don't use anything else! So, I can't think of any other reason these fish are having issues (after 2-3 months of living together without problems). I don't understand the ph thing, and I am too afraid to use chemicals to keep it steady (that's why I cut my water with a little tap...for the stability...even though are water is so hard). I guess I'll just take everyone's advise and try to stop worrying. I just hoped for opinions with this thread, and appreciate the feedback. Oh, I don't have any live plants in my tanks yet, but hopefully will get that going soon if mebbid doesn't block me first for bugging him for help all the time! Lol

If you were the most annoying person I talked to on a regular basis I would consider myself blessed

You know. If you want to be sure that pH isn't your problem it would be a good idea to secure a source of ro/di water and mix it with Seachem Equilibrium. It remineralizes RO/DI water and you can mix it to whatever pH level you want. As unlikely as it is that pH is the issue, it would at least allow you to stop worrying about it as much.

 

[Kelly5978]

I have driftwood in the tank , but I'm pretty sure the purigen removes the tannins. I don't use anything to adjust ph....just cut my very hard tap water with RO. I'm very upset now. Im going to repeat a few facts...just because im racking my brain here....My 55g had ich 3-4 weeks ago. After attempting the heat treatment, I used coppersafe. I left it for 10 days, then added my purigen back to the tank, and began weekly water changes. Since then, 2 of my angels have gotten holes in their dorsal fins. My nitrates never went above 20, and I just kept hoping water changes would fix them. They seemed to repair themselves. My rams began acting lethargic, but I assumed it was due to my sectioning them off in hopes they'd try to mate again. I fell asleep tonight, and woke to find my best angels dorsal fin torn down the middle, and pits in her side. The pits are white, but they are not raised. They look more like indents or missing scales. A different angel had the same pitting on her side last week, but it went away. I'm at a loss. In going to try to add a pic. If its not attached, it will be under my profile in the freshwater-problems-sassy album. It's the completely black fish with the problems this week. Sassy was last week. I feel like I should do something, but I don't know what! I haven't added any chemicals! I've tried to do everything right! I can't believe my fish are looking so bad!

 

[Mebbid]

That looks to me like your angels have been fighting

 

[Kelly5978]

I saw something a while back on another thread, where am angel looked like it had HLLE, and it ended up being diagnosed a bacteria infection. Is this possibly bacterial? Should I just keep hoping water changes help? The "pits" look more like a clear patch from the side. They are definitely not raised. I just don't understand why they keep having issues when I don't change anything.

 

[Kelly5978]

Ok. I trust your opinion! I'll stop freaking. Do you have any advise? I hate seeing them this way...but I hate to re-house them! I NEVER see them fight! The 2 with problems are the aggressors. They both go after the smaller 2. Never each other! Man....if I find out its the Bolivian ram, I'm gonna tear this tank apart to catch him! He would have already been re-homed for picking on the blue rams (now divided off), but I can't catch him!!!!