Here’s my situation in short, I did a transfer from my 30 gal to my 55 gal and the lfs told me that i wouldn't have a problem because I’m taking the filter from my old tank and using it, so i wouldn't have to let my new tank cycle. So i took as much water from my old tank that I could with out disturbing the gravel and stirring it up and siphoned it to the new one and then added the remaining 25 gals of water like I was told. Well the next morning i woke up to my 2 bela sharks dead, so i check my levels and to find out my ammonia is at .50 and my nitrate was at 10, but nothing else was high. So I immediately went to the lfs and bought a bag of ammo chips and carbon to bring it down, which also the lfs told me to do so..... I check the level’s 2 days later which was last night and my ammonia is still climbing. So my question is, is this the new 25 gallons cycling and that’s what is causing my spikes in levels and if so how do I fix it? Should I have not bought that media, should I take it out? What’s going on here, am I going t loose all my fish that I transferred over. Was the lfs wrong? Also i just ordered a canister filter should I set it up right when it comes in or should i wait for the levels to go down. someone help!!!!!
Converted from 30gal to 55gal Help!!!!!
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malkore
Aquarium Advice Addict
You should have moved the gravel from the 30 to the 55 too. Every surface in the 30gallon (assuming it was an established, cycled tank) was covered in beneficial bacteria. The water, however, has next to no bacteria, so it won't help prevent a cycle in the new tank.
(it is aged water that the fish are used to, thus fine to move it for that reason, but it doesn't carry enough bacteria to count).
Water doesn't cycle.
It sounds like your bio-filter was damaged/wiped out in the move because it sat in open air too long.
(it is aged water that the fish are used to, thus fine to move it for that reason, but it doesn't carry enough bacteria to count).
Water doesn't cycle.
It sounds like your bio-filter was damaged/wiped out in the move because it sat in open air too long.
TomK2
Aquarium Advice Addict
Well, if you are going to go through a cycle, you have to try and make it as mild as possible. Do not disturb the gravel or the filters. Add the Fluval when you get it. Do regular, daily PWC's to keep the ammonia and nitrite levels down. If Bio-Spira is available and an option for you, add it to the tank. Use dechlorinators for the water change water. If you have chloramine in your tap water, don't do PWC for low levels of ammonia (less than 1ppm) since chloramine water treated with a dechlorinator typically adds around 0.5ppm of ammonia (based on what the Toronto AA folks have told me in the past). Good luck and keep us posted.
edit: ammo lock and amquel can also be used as a temporary way of making ammonia less toxic to fish.
edit: ammo lock and amquel can also be used as a temporary way of making ammonia less toxic to fish.
Tom to anwser your chloamine question. I'm not using tap water i use filtered water, i have pretty goood luck with it so i been keeping that up. So i guess i don't have any of that in there. What does the bio-spira do, and will it harm the fish? i already did a water change last night i took out 10 gallons, should i do one every day or how often, also should i keep the ammo chips and extra carbon that i put in my filter when i first saw the problem in there or take it out?
TomK2
Aquarium Advice Addict
Are you sure your filter removes chloramine and chlorine? Is it reverse osmosis water? de-ionized water?
Bio-spira is a bacteria culture sold by Marineland Labs. they developed it so that you could set up a new tank, add all your fish, add the bio-spira, and not get a new tank syndrome from a bad cycle. It must be kept refigerated but not frozen. There are sucess stories and problem stories about it. I think its in the $30 range. If you do a search for "bio spira" on AA it will be in a lot of threads. I have never used it.
I would not disturb your current filter at all. Let the bacteria colonize it. Wehter or not the charcoal or ammonia media do any good, they do provide surface area for the bacteria to grow on, which is needed. In the fluval, when you get it, skip the charcoal and ammonia media. You can get started right away with what fluval gives you in the box (charcoal, ceramic prefilter, and ceramic bio-noodles). Or you can buy some additional porous bio-media (seachem, fluval, and eheim make it) to fill a second basket with bio media (fluval will give yuou enough for one at least). then use the first two baskets for mechanical filtration and skip the charcoal. floss, ceramic noodles, and sponges work for mechanical.
Bio-spira is a bacteria culture sold by Marineland Labs. they developed it so that you could set up a new tank, add all your fish, add the bio-spira, and not get a new tank syndrome from a bad cycle. It must be kept refigerated but not frozen. There are sucess stories and problem stories about it. I think its in the $30 range. If you do a search for "bio spira" on AA it will be in a lot of threads. I have never used it.
I would not disturb your current filter at all. Let the bacteria colonize it. Wehter or not the charcoal or ammonia media do any good, they do provide surface area for the bacteria to grow on, which is needed. In the fluval, when you get it, skip the charcoal and ammonia media. You can get started right away with what fluval gives you in the box (charcoal, ceramic prefilter, and ceramic bio-noodles). Or you can buy some additional porous bio-media (seachem, fluval, and eheim make it) to fill a second basket with bio media (fluval will give yuou enough for one at least). then use the first two baskets for mechanical filtration and skip the charcoal. floss, ceramic noodles, and sponges work for mechanical.
so Tom what your saying is when i get the fluval don't put in the charcoal substance that fluval gives me, and instead add extra bio media. When i ordered the fluval i went on dr fostersmiths site there and purchased bio-balls cause i heard those are excellent and i also ordered some nitrate-zorb cause like i explained to you yesterday someone told in my lfs that addind nitrate media and ammo chips would stop all ammonia and nirtate levels from going up. So i plan on atleasr adding the bio balls. So how should my media trays look like, starting from top to bottom or whatever... what should go where. i know you sent it yesterday but now that i have this problem and your telling me to change it lol, so what goes in what basket .
TomK2
Aquarium Advice Addict
Bioballs are a little too large for the baskets, I think. You wouldnt get very many in them. They are excellent for trickle filters and sumps tho.
Charcoal is not highly recommended over other biomedia. after a few weeks it stops absorbing stuff, and is just black granules for bacteria to grow on. Most only use it temporarily to remove meds from the tank. but bacteria does grow on it.
You can use the stuff fluval sends you. I did this, but when I did my first canister maintenance after two months, I replaced the charcoal with more biomedia I had ordered in the meantime. Fluval ceramic noodles, seachem biomedia( just the porous kind, not the specialty ammonia stuff), and eheim make them. Online is cheapest. If you have extra biomedia on hand when the fluval comes, use that instead of the charcoal. If you don't, and the bioballs don't fit, use one basket of the fluval ceramic fluval biorings, and one basket of charcoal.
It is really just time and bacteria colonization that are going to fix your tank, so anything in the filter that lets bacteria grow on it will work. The beauty of the fluval baskets is that its easy to change your mind and customize it any time yu want, just never change everything at once. And keep the other filter running for weeks until the fluval is well established.
Charcoal is not highly recommended over other biomedia. after a few weeks it stops absorbing stuff, and is just black granules for bacteria to grow on. Most only use it temporarily to remove meds from the tank. but bacteria does grow on it.
You can use the stuff fluval sends you. I did this, but when I did my first canister maintenance after two months, I replaced the charcoal with more biomedia I had ordered in the meantime. Fluval ceramic noodles, seachem biomedia( just the porous kind, not the specialty ammonia stuff), and eheim make them. Online is cheapest. If you have extra biomedia on hand when the fluval comes, use that instead of the charcoal. If you don't, and the bioballs don't fit, use one basket of the fluval ceramic fluval biorings, and one basket of charcoal.
It is really just time and bacteria colonization that are going to fix your tank, so anything in the filter that lets bacteria grow on it will work. The beauty of the fluval baskets is that its easy to change your mind and customize it any time yu want, just never change everything at once. And keep the other filter running for weeks until the fluval is well established.
ok so does the charcoal also go's on the top 2 baskets, in your message yesterday you said put mechanical on bottom before bio media, so i take it. it would go charlcoal in basket 3 and whatever bio-media fluval gives me in basket 4 unless i can get the bio balls to fit inside and a good amount of them cause if i can it would go bioballs basket 3 and whatever fluval gives me or is better to put bio balls on top?
TomK2
Aquarium Advice Addict
Put the fluval ceramic biorings on the top. If it comes with ceramic coarse mechanical, those on bottom. for the middle two, you can use floss, bioballs, or charcoal, or another porous media. The exact combo you use is subject to personal preferences. I am using floss in basket two, and extra media in basket three. No charcoal now, but when I didn't have stuff for all the baskets I did use it in the middle basket.
FMJnaX
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Most has already been suggested, but these are also my suggestions:
I would use a water conditioner if you aren't exactly sure what your filter removes/changes. I personally use AquaClear and/or AmQuel +.
Stay away from the AmmoLock type chemicals if at all possible as some of them can really disrupt the cycle by stalling or killing bacteria. AmmoLock works by binding the Ammonia to a less harmful state. I believe AmQuel + and other products work the same way. It makes it less harmful to the fish, but keeps it in the water. It will still read (possibly incorrectly) on test supplies. It may also stall the cycle, or at least slow it down, though most products mention that it will not interfere at all.
The BioSpira should be ok for fish. It's simply cultured bacteria (and maybe something else).
Do frequent PWC, but not more than 50%. Perhaps 25% to 30% is best. Any more may stress your fish. HOWEVER, if you are left with a decision of having to do a massive water to drop the levels while stressing your fish, or the possibility of your fish not making it, then do the massive change (duh! lol).
It may be too late, but try to pull over any of the old substrate/deco's in the other tank. If you're lucky, you may have some bacteria still alive (though I doubt it). It wouldn't really hurt to try.
Water doesn't cycle.... not in the nitrogen cycle anyway. Water cycles in it's own cycle and doesn't directly help your Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, etc, By changing the water in a PWC, you remove parts of the harmful substance, but not all of it. In some cases, a PWC may remove more of less than expected. Since the substance is diluted in the water, it should be an even amount no matter the change, but there is always a possibility. The only way to rid the water of all harmful levels is to change all of the water, but for obvious reasons, we can't do this.
With my experience, Ammo chips only work for a couple of days or so. I had an experience (controlled, to see what would happen) where I got a spike of 5 ppm. Adding Ammo Chips dropped it down to 1 ppm over the course of 3 days. On the fourth day ammonia was back up to 4 ppm*
*Experiment contained no fish, rather a controlled addition of 5 drops of pure ammonia per day in 30 gallons.
With my experience, carbon (AC) didn't do anything. Using the same setup experiment above, ammonia stayed at 5 ppm with a large dose of AC added. Is seems that AC just removes other substances, but not anything from the nitrogen cycle. Perhaps it was just my experiment that failed though.
Your fish may have died just from the shock of the move or from other semi-natural causes. With 2 deaths of the same type, it would appear to be a problem somewhere though. Take a look at the ideal conditions of all your fish and find out if there are any major differences (like pH) and test for that. It may be that, (using pH as the example) your pH changed drastically and your sharks couldn't handle it, but it still falls in the range of your other fish.
These are my thoughts. Most have been stated. Your nitrogen cycle levels seem low enough to to kill, but they still appear out of whack and should be handled as quickly as possible.
I would use a water conditioner if you aren't exactly sure what your filter removes/changes. I personally use AquaClear and/or AmQuel +.
Stay away from the AmmoLock type chemicals if at all possible as some of them can really disrupt the cycle by stalling or killing bacteria. AmmoLock works by binding the Ammonia to a less harmful state. I believe AmQuel + and other products work the same way. It makes it less harmful to the fish, but keeps it in the water. It will still read (possibly incorrectly) on test supplies. It may also stall the cycle, or at least slow it down, though most products mention that it will not interfere at all.
The BioSpira should be ok for fish. It's simply cultured bacteria (and maybe something else).
Do frequent PWC, but not more than 50%. Perhaps 25% to 30% is best. Any more may stress your fish. HOWEVER, if you are left with a decision of having to do a massive water to drop the levels while stressing your fish, or the possibility of your fish not making it, then do the massive change (duh! lol).
It may be too late, but try to pull over any of the old substrate/deco's in the other tank. If you're lucky, you may have some bacteria still alive (though I doubt it). It wouldn't really hurt to try.
Water doesn't cycle.... not in the nitrogen cycle anyway. Water cycles in it's own cycle and doesn't directly help your Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, etc, By changing the water in a PWC, you remove parts of the harmful substance, but not all of it. In some cases, a PWC may remove more of less than expected. Since the substance is diluted in the water, it should be an even amount no matter the change, but there is always a possibility. The only way to rid the water of all harmful levels is to change all of the water, but for obvious reasons, we can't do this.
With my experience, Ammo chips only work for a couple of days or so. I had an experience (controlled, to see what would happen) where I got a spike of 5 ppm. Adding Ammo Chips dropped it down to 1 ppm over the course of 3 days. On the fourth day ammonia was back up to 4 ppm*
*Experiment contained no fish, rather a controlled addition of 5 drops of pure ammonia per day in 30 gallons.
With my experience, carbon (AC) didn't do anything. Using the same setup experiment above, ammonia stayed at 5 ppm with a large dose of AC added. Is seems that AC just removes other substances, but not anything from the nitrogen cycle. Perhaps it was just my experiment that failed though.
Your fish may have died just from the shock of the move or from other semi-natural causes. With 2 deaths of the same type, it would appear to be a problem somewhere though. Take a look at the ideal conditions of all your fish and find out if there are any major differences (like pH) and test for that. It may be that, (using pH as the example) your pH changed drastically and your sharks couldn't handle it, but it still falls in the range of your other fish.
These are my thoughts. Most have been stated. Your nitrogen cycle levels seem low enough to to kill, but they still appear out of whack and should be handled as quickly as possible.
So FMjnax, your saying just do pwc like once a day for a week or 2 weeks should rid the levels, well i already have ammo chips in so i might as well let them stay for now, but i hear ya. I will be doing pwc alot tho to hopefully get rid of this and hopefully ride out this cycle.
Thanks
Thanks
FMJnaX
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Ideally, a PWC every other day will help more than every other week. There are things to take into consideration though. The biggest one is disturbing the biological cycle if it is still running the initial course. Your numbers seem whacky to me so I'm having a hard time deciding if it's something else or still an incomplete cycle.
I am saying that you should be alright doing a PWC every other day if you absolutely have to. I am also saying that this isn't getting to the root of the problem. You will be doing this for ever if you never find the true problem. My suggestion is to try everything else (except for chemicals). If that doesn't work, then begin the frequent PWC WHILE you continue to look for the problem. Chemicals will just create more problems in the long run.
Again, your numbers seem low enough that you don't need to worry about the PWC just yet. If they begin to rise and go over 0.50 (or 1) ppm, then start to consider the water change. Keep the Ammo Chips in and see if that helps. If so, then continue to recharge them and use them while looking for the problem. I can't stress enough that you need to find the problem instead of cover it up. Do so while your levels look to be at a lower level.
I am saying that you should be alright doing a PWC every other day if you absolutely have to. I am also saying that this isn't getting to the root of the problem. You will be doing this for ever if you never find the true problem. My suggestion is to try everything else (except for chemicals). If that doesn't work, then begin the frequent PWC WHILE you continue to look for the problem. Chemicals will just create more problems in the long run.
Again, your numbers seem low enough that you don't need to worry about the PWC just yet. If they begin to rise and go over 0.50 (or 1) ppm, then start to consider the water change. Keep the Ammo Chips in and see if that helps. If so, then continue to recharge them and use them while looking for the problem. I can't stress enough that you need to find the problem instead of cover it up. Do so while your levels look to be at a lower level.
FMJnaX
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Also, how long has it been since the move? It may just be that the filter and bacteria is just trying to get up to speed with the added ~25 gallons. Do you still have your old filter in there? If so, be sure to keep it in for at least 4 weeks to let your new filter catch up bacteria wise.
FMJnaX
Aquarium Advice FINatic
From a PM
yes the old filter(its the only one at the moment) is still in, im actually going to keep the old fliter running even when i get the canister filter. i figure the more the water gets moved around and sent through filteration the better. i did the move over saturday night. Also you say chemicals meaning like bio-spira and stuff to speed up the process or what kind of chemicals. you also say try everything else besides chemicals, whats everything else? also ammo-chips are those consider chemicals no right cause there a form of media, im new to this whole media and chemicals thing? Also anthor words do water changes everyother day when levels start rising alot, should i just ride it out for now. i guess you will clear alot up when you explain this to me....
And my answers:
Let me try to part this out so I don't confuse myself and you. lol
Good idea on the filter. I did the same thing. And unless you have fragile fish (I have fancy goldfish), the extra current won't be a big deal. Too much filtration is better than not enough.
When I mentioned chemicals, I ment things like AmmoLock, ph Up, pH Down, medications, etc. I wasn't talking about BioSpira or Cycle. These really aren't chemicals. They are cultured bacteria in a bottle. Nothing chemical about them.
When I said "everything else", I meant anything else that anyone suggests. This would be like a PWC, removing live plants, added Ammo chips, remove a fish or two (to lighten the bio load), etc. Just anything you can think of that isn't adding a chemical to the water. Remember, a chemical is something non-living. (Salt, hydrogen, oxygen, potassium, etc... though it's the combined stuff like AmmoLock I'm really talking about). They really do hurt in the long run.
Ammo-chips are alright. They are borderline "chemical", but because bacteria can reside on them, they won't cause much harm in the long run. I personally use them in my filters.
I would ride it out for now. The second Ammonia goes over .50 ppm, do a PWC. You can try every day if you want. Every other day (every 2 days) is probably going to be better though. Remember, you don't want to over stress your fish and a PWC every day will do this. Give them time to rest. Again, just ride it out until things get worse. Don't let it get out of hand though (1 ppm and more).
I'm going to post this in your thread since it could potentially help others out. It's best to post in the public thread for this reason. Remember, there's no such thing as a stupid question.
Thanks!
yes the old filter(its the only one at the moment) is still in, im actually going to keep the old fliter running even when i get the canister filter. i figure the more the water gets moved around and sent through filteration the better. i did the move over saturday night. Also you say chemicals meaning like bio-spira and stuff to speed up the process or what kind of chemicals. you also say try everything else besides chemicals, whats everything else? also ammo-chips are those consider chemicals no right cause there a form of media, im new to this whole media and chemicals thing? Also anthor words do water changes everyother day when levels start rising alot, should i just ride it out for now. i guess you will clear alot up when you explain this to me....
And my answers:
Let me try to part this out so I don't confuse myself and you. lol
Good idea on the filter. I did the same thing. And unless you have fragile fish (I have fancy goldfish), the extra current won't be a big deal. Too much filtration is better than not enough.
When I mentioned chemicals, I ment things like AmmoLock, ph Up, pH Down, medications, etc. I wasn't talking about BioSpira or Cycle. These really aren't chemicals. They are cultured bacteria in a bottle. Nothing chemical about them.
When I said "everything else", I meant anything else that anyone suggests. This would be like a PWC, removing live plants, added Ammo chips, remove a fish or two (to lighten the bio load), etc. Just anything you can think of that isn't adding a chemical to the water. Remember, a chemical is something non-living. (Salt, hydrogen, oxygen, potassium, etc... though it's the combined stuff like AmmoLock I'm really talking about). They really do hurt in the long run.
Ammo-chips are alright. They are borderline "chemical", but because bacteria can reside on them, they won't cause much harm in the long run. I personally use them in my filters.
I would ride it out for now. The second Ammonia goes over .50 ppm, do a PWC. You can try every day if you want. Every other day (every 2 days) is probably going to be better though. Remember, you don't want to over stress your fish and a PWC every day will do this. Give them time to rest. Again, just ride it out until things get worse. Don't let it get out of hand though (1 ppm and more).
I'm going to post this in your thread since it could potentially help others out. It's best to post in the public thread for this reason. Remember, there's no such thing as a stupid question.
Thanks!
I also have little dust particula floating in my water, what could this be and how do i get rid of them seeing where im not running a canister filter yet, im sure the fine mechnical media will do it when i get the new filter, but what is it from? you know what i think its from tyhe ammo chips cause i forgot to rinse them before i stuck it in, so i gues my question is how do i get it out of my tank. I say dust particals cause that what it looks like. Thanks fmjnax for you help, and everyone else.
Frank
Frank
FMJnaX
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Yes, it's probably from the Ammo chips. They are very dusty from the box, especially if you got all the way to the bottom. If it's minimal particles, then just let the filter work or let it settle to the bottom. Shouldn't do much harm, if any at all. If your water is cloudy from it, then I would probably do a PWC every other day to get rid of it, just to be safe.
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