Hi, in a sense I do monitor this if the fish are gasping at surface. However I'm reacting to any problems, it would be better if I had an O2 monitor and a bottle set to go before the problem arose ie a prevention system. IMO the fish-less cycling is same issue, the bb is established to prevent any problems. I've also seen articles that wonder if the dosing to 4ppm creates a larger than needed bb population but I guess it should be bullet proof. It would be interesting to know of any issues a too large bb population may create - to date I haven't seen anything on this. Interesting topic.
No there are not, as pointed out, the excess bacteria die off and are broken down by other bacteria.
The topic of this forum, is Aquarium Advise, and although I see many varied topics relating to all facets of fish keeping, I think one of the most talked about is the cycle . . . I think a topic titled like this is confusing to prospective new fish keepers or people who never really join the forum and just read, although it may be intended for conversation, some might think, hey, this guy seems to know what he's talking about because he uses a "high quality scientific test kit". "I don't need to cycle my tank". The fact is, regardless of fishin or fishless cycle, it is proven, that it's necessary, to introduce fish the safest and with the least amount of stress.
Indeed the title of this site is Aquarium Advice, and our site contains fish-keepers of all levels. How are we, as more experienced fish-keepers, to grow and learn if we don't discuss topics that might be confusing to new fish-keepers? If all this site is about is talking about things that new fish-keepers need to know, then experienced fish keepers will eventually tire of it, and move on to sites were more stimulating topics than how to properly cycle a tank are being discussed. Personally, I haven't cycled a tank in years, not since I set up my personal saltwater tank at home. I incorporate an established bacteria colony and move on to the exciting part of keeping an aquarium.
I'm not over-thinking, just trying to apply what I know and have experienced with the nitrogen cycle - too few fishkeepers don't think enough about this subject, hence many, many misunderstandings about 'cycling' a tank. This industry is based on lack of knowledge, hard as that is to take. Fish die through a lack of understanding and more are supplied!
You say that once nitrite goes to 0 and nitrates appear, you can add fish. How many fish? What if those fish aren't producing 4ppm ammonia with the same regularity with which you were adding it manually?
What happens is, the BB die off through lack of food and numbers of BB are reduced to cope with just the ammonia excreted by the fish. A large die-off of bacteria in the filter can cause anaerobic conditions where de-nitrification takes place and nitrite is converted back to ammoniacal nitrogen.
Of course you can do a fish-in cycle and be humane - mother nature does it all the time and aquarists have been doing it for decades. It is a gradual process. Adding one or two fish to a large aquarium and feeding small but regular amounts whilst adding a supply of BB (be it from a bottle or seeded from an established filter), will allow a naturally gradual increase in nitrifying bilogical organisms.
I'm not sure I follow the logic of this statement. Bacteria dying off doesn't create anaerobic conditions. Anaerobic conditions are created by the environment.
Bottom line, Why bother with a cycle at all? I'm sure you and a number of others are well aware that there are plenty of ways to establish a viable bacteria population in a tank in two minutes, without going through the hassel of fish-in or fish-less cycling and without paying money for "bacteria in a bottle" regardless of how reliable or unreliable that product may be. I set up a brand new ten gallon aquarium just this past weekend and stocked it with 10 celebs rainbows. "Gasp!" It took all of 20 minutes, and there are no issues with ammonia or nitrites.
How did I accomplish this magical feat you may ask? Simple, I had the resources I need available and ready to go. I've had a extra sponge and biomedia bag running in one of my filters on a larger tank for several months. I simply removed them, rinsed them out in RO water, stuck them back into their own filter casing and placed the filter on the new aquarium. Even if you don't have this preset and ready to go, simply taking a dirty established sponge, rinsing it out in RO water and then using a new sponge to soak up the rinsed out grunge is going to give you a good sized population of viable bacteria. Open up your media bag and remove a portion of the "seeded media", place it into the new media bag and place unseeded media back into the the original bag. There is no great mystery or secret here, people have been it for years. It is a matter of knowing what you are doing.
And to the subject of oxygen, nitrification is also reliant on the correct amount of available oxygen - the closer the oxygen level is to 100%, the more efficient the bacteria will be in converting nitrogen.
I know of state run fish farms raising trout that are using methods to remove excess oxygen levels from the water, as too high of a oxygen level has been linked to fish deformities and is considered a pollutant. A 100% dissolved oxygen seems like a very high number to me.
I have questioned how the bacteria lives in the bottles myself to be honest and I am going to contradict some of my own comments by saying this, because I have said that if there is not enough ammonia to support a population of BB, then some will die off until a population is established to cope with the ammonia that is present. The fact is, many bacteria will go into a kind of dormancy for a certain length of time, before actually dying off, or 're-animating if ammonia becomes available again. I would suggest that the bottled BB has had the environment manipulated so it remains viable for longer periods - I will be attempting to research this in the near future, although I'm not sure manafacturers are going to be very forthcoming with their methods!
I doubt that environment has anything to do with it, and the most likely answer is it doesn't. Some types are capable of forming endospores (essentially a "seed" condition) when environmental conditions become unfavorable and are able to survive very long periods in this state. When they are then exposed to favorable environmental conditions, they become viable again. This is how bacteria has survived traveling to the moon and back on space ships, and I would guess that this is also the state of the bacteria in a bottle or plastic bag. A sealed bottle or plastic bag is going to create an anaerobic condition in a relatively short amount of time, the only logical explaination is that those bacteria have the ability to form the endospore and do so once the oxygen is consumed. Once you open the bag/bottle and introduced them to a favorable environment they become viable again and start reproducing.
The problem I see with dosing 4ppm ammonia straight of the bat during a fish less cycle is bb competition. By the time heterotrophic bacteria has colonised x amount of surface area, ammonia nitrifying bacteria will start to feed and grow and colonise a surface area equal to 4ppm of ammonia. Does this leave enough surface area for nitrobacter? We know they are slow reproducers as it. Is this the reason why countless people claim that their cycle has 'stalled' and nitrites go through the roof ?
It is an interesting thought, but given that you can fit millions of bacteria on a space as small as the head of a pin, I doubt that in today's typical aquarium with are fancy manmade biomedia that this is ever an issue.
Pip you are a brave man for opening up this subject. I have been in the hobby about as long as you and I am in complete agreement with you, I do fish in cycling. I think fish less cycling is a waste of times and does no more for your fish than if you add them a few at a times. I fish less cycled tank does a mini cycle when a bunch of fish are added. A fish in cycle does the same thing. Start slow and don't add to many fish at once and you will have happy long living fish.
I love the ability to gain information online but when a certain subject is preached long enough on forums it becomes fact like fish less cycle is the best and more humane way.
Actually this particular topic has been the subject of discussion on this site numerous times. The simple truth is that each of these types of cycling has its purpose, and both work equally well for what people are trying to do in this hobby. Just as with many areas of aquarium keeping, there are lots of different ways that things can be done, and all of them work equally well. Its one of the reasons that a "my way or the highway" mentality doesn't get you very far in this hobby. In fact it was a debate somewhat similar to this that sparked Jeta to write his article/thread on fish-in cycling that he titled "Come to the Dark Side . . ." People need to choose a method that works for them and with which they personally are comfortable. Bottom line is, if you are going to successfully keep an aquarium of any sort, you have to have an established bacteria population. How you choose to get there, is really a matter of personal opinion.
if you have no idea what bioload your fish are outputting once added, why take the chance of exposing them to ammonia? am I stupid or is it just yme?
