Diary of a teardown...

[TankGirl]

BBA stands for Black Beard Algae, but it is actually a "red" algae. It grows literally like fur and can be colors varying from red to black. I can't believe I did not take pictures of the way it had covered the driftwood, literally like a pelt.

If you have ever seen a blackish fringe of algae growing around the rim of a plant leaf like Anubias, or often it will grow on equipment parts, like the intake or outflow of your filter, then that is BBA. If you try to get it off, you just tear the plant leaf, and you can't even scrape it off with your fingernail unless it is on glass.

Here is a pic, courtesy of otocinclus.com:

 

[sudz]

Sounds wretched. I've never had it, thank god. I'm only just not experiencing my first bout with spot algae in my 10 gallon. I believe i removed it all though, it was only growing on my plants. Its been a week and i haven't seen any more. I think it came in from some plants i got off e-bay. A pic of it is in my gallery.

Thanks for the info TG!

 

[greenmaji]

It has been suggested to me that maybe I should run my lighting back up over 4wpg like I was and resume my dosing, except I should test regularly for PO4 and I may actually be lacking that nutrient mid-week or so. With the NO3 maintained I could be running out of PO4 in spite of such high concentrations in my tap water. That is an interesting concept, and one that had not occurred to me as I focused on how to reduce it. I'll try this and see what happens.

consistant high CO2 levels (25-30ppm) help to prevent BBA as well..
this seems most difficult with DIY CO2.. to keep CO2 consistant.. but with a presurized system it wouldnt be nearly as tricky IMHO.
keeping your NO3 to PO4 ratio (10:1) in good perportion will definately help..
good luck

 

[BrianNY]

Well I've lots of opinions here, but they're only opinions. We all know that the chemistry of an aquarium must adhere to certain rules. Therefore for you not to have experienced a cycle means that enough nitrifying bacteria survived to ward it off. As BillD says, it probably was thriving in your gravel bed.

As far as TDS, it's really a function of carbonate hardness that stabilizes pH. Jack Watley can monitor percent of pwcs by measuring pH because his water probably has zero carbonate hardness. I've noticed that my buffered tanks will not change in pH even when I do a 50% pwc. This is because my tap water is so soft that it instantly reverts to the tank pH. Again, JMO.

I'll discuss the BBA issue when I've more time. LOL

 

[TankGirl]

consistant high CO2 levels (25-30ppm) help to prevent BBA as well..
this seems most difficult with DIY CO2.. to keep CO2 consistant.. but with a presurized system it wouldnt be nearly as tricky IMHO.
keeping your NO3 to PO4 ratio (10:1) in good perportion will definately help..
good luck

I maintain my CO2 at 30ppm with pressurized, and maintain about 15-20ppm NO3 consistently. I was "assuming" that the PO4 was staying high but the thought was that my PO4 was actually dropping mid-week in between PWC's where I get my dose from the tap. That is what I am going to check into, since otherwise I was doing what is necessary to prevent BBA.

My routine is to do 50% PWCs weekly and dose 10-15mL TMG, dose KNO3 and K2SO4. Every couple of days I have to dose KNO3 again to maintain my levels, and I add about 5mL TMG daily. Could the TMG be adding too much iron? I do not have an iron test kit because I always heard they were not reliable. Also, in spite of the BBA, I had very lush growth, with the glosso almost completely coverering the bottom and creeping up the driftwood, the dwarf sag sprouting up all over, anubias growing new leaves weekly, the stem plants having to be hacked back regularly, etc. There was no lack of growth in this tank, and the plants never appeared chlorotic and had no deformed leaves or other signs of nutrient deficiency. The older leaves were falling victim to the BBA.

 

[czcz]

This may be crazy to you, but I think you should try upping CO2 to 35ppm, which is arguably just at or maybe past the upper threshold of what plants want. I run my set-up rich in nutrients (including PO4 >3ppm) and light too, and with higher levels of CO2 do not have BBA. My CO2 is maintained over 40ppm, but that is more the limits of DIY methods and my goal of maintaining norminal output above the upper threshold of plant need. BBA was a lot like nuisance algae ime where it hangs around for no reason after you get everything dialed in, but even a little more CO2 can limit it. Flourish Excel or one of its active ingredients is known to also kill BBA, of course.

Have you considered going to 4.75wpg in the middle of your photoperiod, like a noon lighting period? It is a lot of light and short bursts of it should keep your color while bringing down growth and limiting algae. I want to try this med high-very high-med high photoperiod but dont have the watts/space to do it right over my tanks.

 

[TankGirl]

Yes, I had considered staggering my lighting by placing them on different timers, since the single fixture has two plugs, and also since now that I have the tank set back up again I am itching to hit it with the klieg lights as usual. 8)

I had not considered 35ppm CO2, thinking that 30ppm was crazy enough, but I might try it and if I see any untoward reaction from the fish I'll cut it back.

EDIT: Actually, revisiting Gadd's calculator, with my KH at 6 I already am at 35ppm, and have been all along, even with the full-blown outbreak of BBA. I'm trying to keep a positive outlook, but this is a bit daunting. I dose my small tanks with Excel but for this tank I'd have to buy it by the gallon. :|

 

[TankGirl]

Diary of a teardown...*Update*

Here is a pic of the tank "after the fall."

For BBA prevention I am working on adjusting my CO2 based on the fact that my high PO4 will throw my CO2 calculations off, and I am also experimenting with higher doses of Fe, since a lack of Fe would cause the plants not to be able to uptake the PO4 as well. I am running my lights full blast only for half of the time, with half of them on early and late, all of them on in the middle of the day.

As you can see, most of the plants that I used to have in there are history, though I don't think any one plant is completely gone and I was able to save at least a sprig of everything. It is wierd to see this tank so bare and look forward to it filling in. I am tempted to buy a bunch more plants and load 'er up, but I would prefer to allow what I have to grow back in and monitor carefully how things go. I am happy to be able to see my gorgeous driftwood that I chose so carefully, and which was completely concealed by plants and BBA before.

I never did have any kind of spike in ammonia or nitrite, and still no fish deaths. Rosy barbs will go in next week when Q is over, in an effort to find a fish that will eat BBA. I remove tufts of BBA from the gravel daily, and I placed some of those in a glass dish in the Q tank with the barbs, allowing their pellet food to drop into the dish with it, but I don't see that they are eating the BBA. If I have to starve my whole tank in order to get the barbs to eat the BBA then this is not going to work. :?

 

[kaz]

I'm kind of new at this but I had my starters 10g tank and I use to do that once a month without a single death until i learn more. I then upgrades to a 20g and then I had to move so I dead the moving and I empty my tank just leaving enough water for the gravel but did a major clean and i didnt lose one single fish. I do have occasionally peaks of nitrates can't figure that out yet I feed twice a day about a 1/4 of the size of the food cap and do 20 to 30% water changes every week.

 

[czcz]

TG,

Great layout.

I think if you keep it up you will beat the BBA back though I understand it is discouraging that its already growing. You may know this already, but after removing it a water change to remove spores is a good idea. Since you are removing BBA everyday maybe throwing in an extra water change each week will help. (I did this when I had BBA.) Is your plan to keep increasing CO2 until the BBA stops spreading, assuming no stress on fauna?

 

[TankGirl]

Believe me, I am doing water changes several times a week, about 50%, which I advocate, especially in the face of eliminating BBA, but I don't really advertise this as it is one of my many "renegade outlaw aquarist" activities that is not terribly popular on the forums.

My plan is to up the CO2 (as suspected, I am not getting the cocentrations I thought I was due to the PO4 buffer) and increase Fe and see what happens. I can see changes day to day, and I am nowhere near the "fish gasping" point so I have some wiggle room with the CO2. The tank is in my family room so I am watching it constantly and the minute I see trouble I'll make adjustments. It is easy enough to do a PWC and get some splashing going if I reach maximum CO2.

I hope to learn a lot from this experience, and it helps to share the whole humiliating event with you all so that some valuable information can be shared among us - I am confident I am not the only one who has gone through the scourge of the dreaded BBA.

 

[BrianNY]

My tank is looking just as bare TG (even worse). I never put the driftwood back in. The good news is the rosy barbs really do eat the BBA. They don't graze the gravel but do pick at from the heaters and filter tubes. Interesting.

 

[BillD]

Believe me, I am doing water changes several times a week, about 50%, which I advocate, especially in the face of eliminating BBA, but I don't really advertise this as it is one of my many "renegade outlaw aquarist" activities that is not terribly popular on the forums.

Good for you, TG. I too advocate large water changes, and you are right, it flies in the face of the myth of small water changes being less stressful. These forums are great, but they do perpetuate a lot of myths. All the aquarists I know, that I would call expert ( I don't consider myself one), all change lots of water. IME you can't change too much water, too often, especially if you are growing fry. You obviously know from experience that it is the right thing to do. Keep up the good fight. LOL There are many myths to be dispelled, one at a time.

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

Interesting, I had a hair like algae on the rim of a lot of my anubias, never thought anything of it since I was aware that anubias is a slower growing plant and was told it's not uncommon for it to get algae on it..

The clown loaches and algae eaters ate it and there is no trace of it in the tank now.. but my lighting is far less then 4WPG...

 

[TankGirl]

Here is an update:

Things are really filling in, and I am not seeing any advance of BBA that remains in bits and tufts in the gravel. I am seeing no new growth of it. I am not sure what is doing the trick here, though it is likely to be higher CO2. That may be my Maginot line, though, so I have to be careful not to be complacent, and be mindful of other parameters.

My rosy barbs are all over the tank, and they seem to like to snack on BBA on the gravel, but they have a hard time getting it off the pieces. I have added some more plants from other tanks and some generously donated by czcz. The plants are pearling and are happy as can be.

I am going out of town after Christmas so I am nervous, but I will cut back the lighting to half-strength and hope things do not look drastically different when I return. I have 6 tanks but I am not terribly worried about the fish, just about the stoopid BBA!

 

[wright4lfe]

it really is amazing some of the myths that get perpetuated on some of these fish forums.

i also do large water changes every couple weeks or so. my reasoning though is i'm changing water in a 300gl, a 110 and a 46gl. i alternate the 110gl and 46gl one week and the 300gl the next. when i change water its generally 30-50% changes due to the params checked just prior to the change.

my other favorite myth perpetuated by another forum having to do with oscars is that in a 135 you can have no more than 2 oscars and no other fish, no matter what kind of filtration you use. funny thing is, if you even try to debate them a little bit on it they will freeze/delete your account if you don't back down and tow the line.

 

[TankGirl]

funny thing is, if you even try to debate them a little bit on it they will freeze/delete your account if you don't back down and tow the line.

I have participated in forums like that! That's why I mainly stay here - you will not see that kind of thing going on at AA. I am on an aquatic plant forum that will delete your account if you question how anything is done (I saw this happen in the "suggestions/feedback" forum, where this sort of thing is supposed to be brought up!) so it is nice to know you can disagree here without getting tossed out.

I love to discuss the myths/dogma that exists in our hobby. On another fish forum I started a thread about "myths of fishkeeping" and how in some ways I break the rules and do what works for me, while others could do the same thing and not have good results. Fortunately, it was a friendly thread, though I was worried about how it would go.

 

[wright4lfe]

funny thing is, if you even try to debate them a little bit on it they will freeze/delete your account if you don't back down and tow the line.

lol

thats exactly what happened. i was another board where a guy was asking if aro's are compatible with an oscar(s).

everyone was saying no (including the mods) and that they needed a minimum 500gl tank and that anything else was "torture". i politely disagreed and said that if properly filtrated they would be fine in a 280/300.

everyone jumped and said i was full of misinformation, ridiculous and all other sorts of passive/agressive insults. i then politely disagreed and brought up numerous reasons why it was ok, backed everything up with facts and figures.

next thing i know i'm being pm'ed by the site owner telling me to stop being hostile. when i quoted the mods on the forum as well as forum members who initially insulted me, he just said to stop being hostile or stop posting period...

it was hilarious.

 

[BillD]

Whether fish are "tortured" in a smaller than optimum tank is probably a moot point. However, it does raise the issue regarding the myth that adding more filtration increases the amount of fish you can keep, or that you can "over filter" a tank. The bioload in a tank will determine the minimum amount of filtration in a tank. If we accept that a tank that has 0 ammonia, and zero nitrate as being adequately filtered, adding more filtration will not reduce those numbers any lower, or lower the level of nitrate. If you were to add a second filter of equal capacity, each filter would do half the job, and the numbers would be the same for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Further, with 2 filters you could increase the bioload and still have 0 ammonia, and 0 nitrite, but the nitrate number would increase, requiring more frequent/larger water changes. The determing factor for stocking level is not filtration, but rather the amount of water changed. In fact, if you had an endless source of fresh water to flow through your tank, you would not need any filtration at all, and you could stock to the point the fish could barely move. You would also have no need to be concerned about the tank cycling. Such a situation is not practical in the home, of course, but it does put things into perspective. From this perspective, we can filter and change water as necessary, to maintain the best conditions possible, but it is a myth that simply adding more filtration will allow you to overstock, or that it is possible to "over filter". Nitrate and other toxins need to be removed, and the simplest, most economical way, is to change water; the amount to be determined by the bioload in the tank. However, it is better to change too much, rather than too little.

 

[BrianNY]

At the risk of hijacking TGs thread I'm giving you guys a big BRAVO. I think I'll start a discussion on changing water.