Disappearing Ottos

[Ryan87500]

I recently purchased 6 ottos and have plenty of algae for them to eat. I ask have two Siamese algae eaters ( I think). Here is a picture in case anyone thinks they are not SAE. They spend most of there time hiding in a castle with a cave opening.


I found one Otto dead this morning and missing two more. I can only find 3 of them on glass or plants.

I also have a pair of german blue Rams in the tank and a few Cory cats.

Any thoughts on if another fish is eating them? I can't find them anywhere.

I have never seen another fish bug them.




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[dalto]

They probably are just dying. Otos often struggle through acclimation.

 

[Brookster123]

They probably are just dying. Otos often struggle through acclimation.

+1, I've a couple disappear into the abyss. Smell the tank... you'll know if you need to search and remove..

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[Ricky 1]

I have 2 Otto's and they are hard to find, I thought mine were gone but they eventually show up, my concern is the GBR if any Otto's have died..........you would need to do a WC now.......

 

[Fishfur]

Otos are often hard to keep alive for the first couple of months. They are wild caught, and starve for some time between being caught and getting to the store. Then they find nothing they recognize as food, and most important, the gut bacteria they rely on to digest the high cellulose diet of algae have largely died off. It takes quite a long time to regenerate the gut bacteria. Many of them die shortly after reaching a store, so best to buy them only after they have been there at least two weeks.

Even then, you're really not home free for about two months. If they are still alive after that chances are they'll do well for many years. The fish themselves are really not frail or fragile, and it's not so much acclimation as it is regeneration of the the gut flora that governs how they do. A good many of them never learn to eat man made food at all, which is why having algae for them is very important.

 

[Ricky 1]

That is very true FF; they can die of starvation, I was lucky, I always never clean the back glass of the tank, that kept them sustained, now they eat algae wafers, and pellets......

 

[Ryan87500]

Found another dead Otto today. He was all white. I am guessing this is because I started using co2. The drop checker shows low co2 though.


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[Fishfur]

Some people have had good luck, I guess, with Otos, but based on a great deal of research I did on them, after my first batch died off, losing them is a lot more common than not losing them. The trouble is, even if you have algae, and they're eating lots of algae, if the gut bacteria have not grown back enough to digest that algae, they're still starving. They can starve with a full stomach, which is really rather sad.

They're so cheap still, most just replace them when they do die. If their numbers ever become low enough in their habitat that catching them wild becomes too difficult or costly, perhaps then they'll be raised on farms and the problem will cease to exist.

Given where they come from, I think it's amazing if an Oto learns to eat algae tabs at all.

 

[Gillie]

I read some years ago that since otos are quite active grazers, that it is best to pick only the ones actively moving and feeding over ones that are just hanging out. I've stuck with this for years now and it has worked well for me over the years.

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[Fishfur]

That makes sense.. fish that are active clearly still have energy, so they're stronger, while those that just sit there may already be struggling due to lack of calories.

 

[Ryan87500]

I had them for two weeks. It seems like since I added co2 they started to die.


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[Gillie]

What are you feeding them? Otos feed mainly on biofilm, diatoms and green algaes like dust algae, they don't really touch other types .

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[trennamw]

They are sensitive fish.

I've had almost no problems with them, only losing 1 to unknown issues out of 10. They all eat algae wafers (omega one). I often think I've lost them but then when I put the wafers in their preferred dark back corner, I see them all.

If they die it's possible other fish eat them. It's not abnormal for them to turn white after dying in my experience.

But if you've changed water parameter quickly, starting the co2, maybe that's it?

I can see how gut flora plays a part but I think there is more to it. You put a bunch in a tank together and you'd think they'll share gut flora in a matter of days, like other animals.

Even the 4 I got from Petsmart a week after their arrival are thriving today. They went into a tank whose biofilm had all dried out in a move, 2 weeks after the move. My others survived the move and a day with a broken filter.

I wonder if it's water too, even if it's clean. My water is very very soft, TDS from the tap is under 30. Or minerals, I do remineralize with a broad range of minerals. I'll have to ask if others in my area do well with Otos ...

I think stress is a big issue for them too. They need a lot of friends and hiding spots.

What are the results of your most recent water test? How often do you change the water?


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[Fishfur]

I don't doubt other factors matter to Otos too.. look at the way they are caught ! Did you know, they use cyanide to stun them, then collect them. Not only hard on the fish, very hard on the collectors.. some of whom are blinded by the cyanide in the water.

As for gut flora, sure, any they have are going to be excreted along with whatever else is excreted, but if most of the flora are dead, it could take weeks for them to regenerate to useful levels. If a human is on antibiotics that knock out the gut flora, it can take weeks for things to return to normal, and I'm fairly sure it takes weeks for the fish too.

Add that to shipping stress, the conditions in any given store's tanks, etc... it's a wonder any of them survive.

 

[trennamw]

That's interesting to know about the cyanide. Gives me an idea to look into ...

It can take months for gut flora in humans to "normalize" and it depends on what strains we are exposed to. It's possible the proper species never repopulate. Every person has different species and we are finding out a lot about how the demographics affect health.

Very new research found that people with severe peanut allergies were lacking the same bacteria, and once supplemented the allergy went away. Similarly babies born at home in clean yet non sterile environments have more diverse flora than those born in hospitals.

It may be that in some fish the correct species don't populate because they aren't available. I wonder if this has to do with bacterial incompatibility in discus too.




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[Ricky 1]

Are we overly clean perhaps, there are that many disinfectant's about these day's, I also read farmed salmon are fed antibiotics in large quantity's, can that have diverse affects on humans..........

 

[Fishfur]

To me, there is no question that we are in some ways overly clean. There was research done, some time ago now, on severe asthma; you can look it up. The researcher came up with a vaccine now called the 'Dirt vaccine', based on native bacteria from some native soils, and once made into an inoculation, it actually cured some people who were expected to die. Not 100% of them, but a very high percentage given that all the participants in the trial were 'worst case' cases. The premise of the vaccine, very simply, was based on observations that kids raised on farms, in intimate contact with native soils, rarely got asthma compared to city raised kids who never touch native soils. Most cities have had the 'native' soil stripped, as topsoil, during construction, even in most parks. Later research does show people living on farms all share their own bacterial flora which aren't the same as the flora on another farm, even one just down the road.

We rely greatly on factory farming, which in turn relies on vast quantities of antibiotics being fed to animals directly, in most cases along with GMO grains, merely to keep them alive in the overcrowded conditions required for profits to be made [ and yes, I do believe that includes farmed salmon too ]. It leads to antibiotic resistance in both animals and the people who consume them. At the very end, the oceans receive EVERYTHING we dump on the land eventually. Not to mention the vast amounts of pharmaceuticals we take ourselves, which enter the water system daily.

We have so many 'antibacterial' cleaning products, and some of the antibacterial agents work like antibiotics do too; [triclosan is just one and is used in a number of cosmetics, not just cleaning agents ]. These may be contributing to antibiotic resistance too. Don't catch one of the resistant diseases that are around now, because there isn't any pharmaceutical cure for more and more of them.

Is it any wonder that a very small fish, stunned with cyanide and then starved, struggles to survive in our tanks. I really do think it's amazing any of them manage it. Fortunate indeed that some learn to eat manmade food.

 

[Ricky 1]

They used cyanide to stun tropical reef fish, I do believe it shortened their life considerably, these fish live for up to 20 years on the reef, in a marine tank you could half that, having said that, I think they have now stopped using it...... Good post by the way ^