Ethics question

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Delapool

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Every so often I come up with a question that I can't find much on.

Example would be say how long can media sit in tap water before bacteria is killed off or even will they be killed off. Note this just an example.

Another might be testing Pimafix with betas or testing med combinations. If these caused issues in controlled conditions for healthy fish, it could be dubious that unhealthy fish could stand the stress. Some threads the med is blamed for fish death but is it really the med?? Note just random thoughts from over the years.

Anyways basically looking at something like a scientific experiment. In these it can be quite common to test to mortality limit.

I appreciate the work the scientific community does but as a fish keeper I'm trying to preserve life. But that seems a bit two faced. If I'm happy to read of experiment results including mortality rates, then perhaps I should be able to suck it up and perform any experiments such as mentioned above. I stress those were just example what-if situations where I've thought would it be great if a computer could simulate test results but of course nothing like that exists (at least on my wage).

I realise to certain extent we do lots of accidental experiments and gain experience. One early one was at the lfs and getting shown melted air pumps that people had thought were in tank heaters.

However these experiments would be deliberate. So a quandary. Thoughts?
 
In the name of science! Say you were to carry out the betta and pimafix experiment?? So.long ad scrupulous notes and obervations were all.well documented and available to the public I would see no wrong in this. Unless it's already been done numerous times with similar findings. Than it'd just be cruel and unnecessary..
If you're going to conduct one?? I'd be more curious to see the effects of corys and prolonged salt exposure.

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If the plan is to educate and prevent future fish deaths, then I believe that it's an acceptable practice assuming measures are taken to prevent undue suffering of the fish. Without tests like these there is just too much information we wouldn't know.
 
If the plan is to educate and prevent future fish deaths, then I believe that it's an acceptable practice assuming measures are taken to prevent undue suffering of the fish. Without tests like these there is just too much information we wouldn't know.

Exactly!
Edited.

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Thanks for the replies. Good points.

That makes sense, it would have to be something that is worthwhile. And just no information out there.
 
I'm honestly not even sure if it would be postable in a forum. I can't remember anything in the rules(?) but not sure if it breaks the 'spirit' of forum posting.

On the other hand there would be no point doing it, if the information couldn't be shared I guess.

Edit - yes, I thought I would be in the bunker by now....
 
Example would be say how long can media sit in tap water before bacteria is killed off or even will they be killed off. Note this just an example.

Another branch from this is how long can the bacteria survive without an ammonia source. Ie a QT tank that is not broken down when not being used for QT.

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Out of interest what do others ponder??

I'd love to know if triple sulpha is effective for ich like it says on the label but nobody has ever heard of it for this purpose....
 
I think under a study of controlled testing and observation it is acceptable.

Fish comfort is taken into consideration.

Monitoring results daily if not every 12 hours.

If one fish death can protect the lives of thousands then so be it.


Caleb
 
I think that it is important to use science to our advantage, and if a few lives of animals are lost for the well being of other animals then I think it needs to be that way. I look at the fish as individuals, not just a whole "bunch" of fish. The need of the many outweigh the need of the few, right? Once it gets to the point where people just disrespect animals for fun or when the tests have no significance anymore than it isn't ethical anymore. Hopefully this makes sense to everyone :)
 
I agree without any other method that using live animals is a choice we have to make.
I also think after exhaustive searching on the topic of salt and cories that an experiment is in order.
I really can't believe that no study can be found , and believe me I tried also.
I found links with some of the most useless info(want to know what frequency fish can hear and how it changes with "crap" added to water?It is out there!) but not one that says anything besides different species can tolerate different amounts or none, with no specicfics or citing of any study!
Unfortunately I think there is more to this then just how much salt for how long...
Things like water parameters,tempature and who knows what else will likely play a role in accurate conclusions.

If for the person conducting the test the value of life falls into question then I do have agree with Nils.
~Newbs and in experienced keepers will kill more cories then a test/experiment (done by hundreds of different people) could ever do IMO~
 
I think that it is important to use science to our advantage, and if a few lives of animals are lost for the well being of other animals then I think it needs to be that way. I look at the fish as individuals, not just a whole "bunch" of fish. The need of the many outweigh the need of the few, right?
Agreed. But experiments on live subjects should be done by qualified experts in laboratory conditions, not by a hobbyist like me wondering what would happen if I ...
 
Agreed. But experiments on live subjects should be done by qualified experts in laboratory conditions, not by a hobbyist like me wondering what would happen if I ...

I totally agree with this. This helps to ensure that the fish will not suffer during the experiment and that the most will be made of the experiment. If you really need to end the fish's life earlier than it should, then you need to resect that and make sure that the animal goes without pain.
 
I have a friend that used to work in aquaria as a biologist. I will see if she has contacts that can run an experiment like this.
 
If you're going to conduct one?? I'd be more curious to see the effects of corys and prolonged salt exposure.

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::gasp:: noooo! Haha

In any case, if you do your research and take the best care to ensure the health and safety of the fish I don't see anything wrong with it. Hobbyists experimenting provide so much valuable information to the world of aquaria. I got in an argument with someone not too long ago re: cory hybrids...I posted a thread somewhere about how I crossbreed trilineatus and metae. Yeah, I get that it's frowned upon, but now that questionable entry on the "list" can be confirmed by some n00b like me. I'm not selling or breeding, just satisfying "I wonder if..."
Keep us all posted!
 
Im rather curious abt expirement results. Regardless of whos doing it. But, We are discussing ethics here... right? Then lets turn the needle of the compass to point back to us. Would we be ok with it if it was us in their place? Thats the thought that should resonate when discussing ethics. Just food for thought. Causeethical tunes would change when the crosshair of discussion is about you.

That aside..... Do it.

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Would we be ok with it if it was us in their place? Thats the thought that should resonate when discussing ethics. Just food for thought. Causeethical tunes would change when the crosshair of discussion is about you.

If we approached every single situation with this in mind then there would never, ever, ever be any medical advances.
 
Your point, sir? Its true ethics. Regardless of agenda. Medical advances are still an agenda.

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And true ethical discussion cant be ethical with an agenda in any direction. Its all supposed to be set aside when discussing ethics. Any ethics discussion with an agendais an un-ethical discussion.

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