Go Back   Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community > Freshwater > Freshwater & Brackish - General Discussion
Click Here to Login

Join Aquarium Advice Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com
 
Old 09-08-2013, 02:52 AM   #1
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 62
filtration rate vs turnover rate question

Ive searched and haven't found a very clear answer yet becuase most seem to be lumping filtration and turnover/circulation rates together. I understand water should be turned over roughly 10x per hour, maybe more maybe less depending on the setup and stock in tank. My question is how much of that should be actual filtration not just water movement from a powerhead or similar?

For example my tank is roughly 140 accounting for substrate and decor, my filter (cascade 1500] is rated for 360gph so will call it 300gph since they usually overstate it and I have to koralia nano 425s rated at 425pgh which will call 400gph. Using those numbers im at 1100gph total or turnover rater about 7.5 times an hour but only about 2x on filtration. I think I need more filtration but was unsure how much more to try and add. Ialready have a lot of current in the tank and adding to much more may be to much. I have been looking at doing a diy spray bar and making the holes larger on it to try and lessin the current produced but am not sure if that would even work either.

Current tank stock
3 clown loaches
5 peppered corys
2 comet goldfish (I know goldfish shouldnt be in there I rescued them from being flushed and they will go in a pond soon)
I plan to add a pleco (he's actually in quarantine right now) and some cichlids later on.
__________________

__________________
lscotty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2013, 04:46 AM   #2
member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 629
I feel a tank should be turned over a min of 8 x per hour no matter what your stocking is
__________________

__________________
T1KARMANN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2013, 06:26 AM   #3
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by T1KARMANN View Post
I feel a tank should be turned over a min of 8 x per hour no matter what your stocking is
Ok minimum of 8 x per hour turnover rate but how much of that is done by filtration? 1/2 filter 1/2 powerhead? More? Less? I mean you could have a 100 gallon tank with an 800gph turnover which is 8x per hour but if its only 100gph filter and the other 700 powerhead thats not gonna keep the water clean enough. I know there isnt a set exact number that can really be applied but just looking for opinions or even a general rule of how much turnover by filtration you should shoot for
__________________
lscotty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2013, 08:34 AM   #4
Aquarium Advice Freak
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 271
140 gallon tank ? i would run 2 of those cascade 1500 on it if its a planted tank. if its just a regular tank then it would be ok. a powerhead does count towards turnover but you want your water clean no?. i have a 67 gallon and i run 2 cannisters on it. a cascade 1000 and a sunsun 302,,water looks like glass. both rated around 260 ish gph. i also have one korallia on a timer for night time.

consensus on planted tank is 6x cannister
__________________
20cc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2013, 08:55 AM   #5
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by 20cc View Post
140 gallon tank ? i would run 2 of those cascade 1500 on it if its a planted tank. if its just a regular tank then it would be ok. a powerhead does count towards turnover but you want your water clean no?. i have a 67 gallon and i run 2 cannisters on it. a cascade 1000 and a sunsun 302,,water looks like glass. both rated around 260 ish gph. i also have one korallia on a timer for night time.

consensus on planted tank is 6x cannister
Thank you thats exactly the type of opinions I was looking for hopefully others will add more opinions later. My tank isnt planeted, well other then fake plants, I figured since its my first tank and kinda big I shouldn't push my luck to much. Someday I will attempt live plants. Ive been thinking about adding a 2nd canister filter mostly for piece of mind and was actually looking at the sunsun earlier because of its price but Im hesitant to buy something I cant get parts for locally if needed.
__________________
lscotty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2013, 09:01 AM   #6
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
BBradbury's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 5,011
Hello Is...

Filtration equipment won't keep the tank water pure. It's simply taking in toxic water and returning the same water that's just a bit less toxic. Only large, weekly water changes will maintain pure water conditions. The key to a healthy tank isn't overfiltration, it's removing the old water and replacing it with pure, treated tap water.

If you do your large, weekly water changes you don't need a filtration system with a gph (gallon per hour) rating much above 4 times the tank volume.

Just do your regular water changes, so there's no time for wastes to reach a harmful level. The more water you change and the more often you change it, the healthier your fish and plants.

Pretty simple.

B
__________________
"Fear not, my young apprentice. Just change the tank water."
BBradbury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2013, 09:23 AM   #7
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 62
That is a good point also. So far water changes are my least favorite part of having a fish tank but im getting use to them and its less of a chore the more I do it cause I know its keeping the fish alive and healthy. So I guess basically if the filter is keeping the toxic levels down between water changes then it is enough filtration for the tank and if not then more is needed. That sound about right
__________________
lscotty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2013, 12:06 PM   #8
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
BBradbury's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 5,011
Hello again Is...

Waste products take time to reach toxic levels and large, frequent water changes don't allow time for the waste to build to a toxic level.

The only things the filtration system is doing is moving the water's surface, so oxygen gets into the water and so carbon dioxide can escape (gas exchange). It also helps remove the small particles of plant and fish material that can cloud the water. But water changes do those jobs too.

If you were energetic enough to do large water changes every day or two, you could remove the filter system and never have to test the water. The water changes would guarantee stable properties all the time. Sadly, maybe 1 in a 10,000 tank keepers is willing to do this. Count me in the 10,000.

B
__________________
"Fear not, my young apprentice. Just change the tank water."
BBradbury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2013, 05:49 PM   #9
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 62
Just to make sure everythings ok I've been testing the water and doing 25% water changes every other day and thought maybe it was to often. Good to hear thats not the case and thats it is probably better overall. Since its my 1st fish tank I guess maybe I'm a little paranoid about killing my fish but I like them and wanna make sure they are happy and healthy. Since ive been changing water so much ive been looking at getting a trash can and a pump to try and make it easier. I have the aqueon water changer but its 40ft to the closest faucet that I can attach it to and dragging that hose around is a pain cause I have 6 dogs that like to trip over it the whole time.
__________________
lscotty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2013, 08:30 PM   #10
Aquarium Advice Freak
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 271
dont make life so hard on yourself.. i have never met a fishkeeper with a tank 100+ gallons that doesnt use a sump or a filter. you can NEVER have to much filtration !! thats what biomedia is for in your filter...to remove the toxins.. without a filter you will have to sleep next to your tank with an ammonia alarm as a wake up clock.

as a begginer you should take all precautions to ensure that your fish health are met, experimenting with advance fish keeping techniques is best left for until you have a solid grasp on the hobby .

by me running 2 filters i have reduced my maintenance to every 2 weeks waterchange ...i have 4 trays filled with bio media , 2 trays with sponge and floss ..i dose ferts and feed my fish very well and my parameters are good past the one week mark.

its better to be safe than sorry.....especially if you have expensive fish
__________________
20cc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2013, 10:48 PM   #11
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,270
Need to teach 'dem puppies to leave the hose alone . But I know what you mean, the hose is heavy when full of water. Still beats lugging buckets though.
__________________
Fishfur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 09:52 AM   #12
Aquarium Advice Freak
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Gulf Breeze, Florida
Posts: 419
Great topic ....... GPH factor is way over-rated

If the correct rule of filtration is 8x to 10x gallons of water in aquarium .. then EVERY brand of filter is mislabled. An AquaClear 50 at 200 GPH should only be for 20 to 25 gallon tanks. Ask yourself why don't manufacturers of filters label their products using the 8x to 10x so you'd be forced to buy a bigger and more expensive product.

The more important issues of course are the quality of filter media and amount of beneficial bactia the water passes through.

My 38 gallon 330 GPH Aqua-Tech makes the fish look like they're swimming against a rip current. I cannot even imagine what it would look like with 380 GPH. Although my water was clear, ....... it did not have that "polished & crystal clear" look until (based on advice in this forum) I stuffed the thing with 100 micron filter pads and seachem purigen.

I hate the rip current effect of my 38 gallon so bad, I plan on replacing my 330 GPH with a two filter system under with an output under 300 GPH. Probably a fluval C3 (same as I have on my 29 gallon) and an aquaclear 20. This will give me about 300 GPH of filtration but only 200-250 GPH of outflow due to their patented "flow control" mechanisms.

My 29 gallon did a "fish in" cycle with seeded filter media in less than 10 days. It has 12 fish in it now and and a flow rate of about 6x ....... yet the water is "polished" with API test kit reading showing ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0-5ppm (on day 7 I took out the carbon and substituted Purigen & filter floss the carbon media basket.)
__________________
Paul1792 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 12:44 PM   #13
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Cactuspixie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Queensland Australia
Posts: 1,830
I believe in over-filtering AND frequent large water changes.
Over-filtering makes the tank LOOK pristine, and keeps my ammonia and nitrite readings at zero.
Large twice weekly water changes ensures my tank IS pristine, by removing waste from the substrate and nitrAtes from the water column.
Over-filtering doesn't remove nitrAtes from your tank, but if you rely on it to keep your tank clean rather than frequent water changes, and you don't clean your filters more regularly, you will have increasing nitrAte levels.
Over time as your nitrAte goes up, your PH goes down, then when you finally get around to doing that water change, you get a large PH jump, fish get sick/die, and you think darn! Water changes are bad for my fish- I will reduce them to a monthly schedule....
__________________
Cactuspixie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 01:02 PM   #14
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
BBradbury's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 5,011
Aquarium Water Filtration

Having 10 filters in your aquarium won't make the water 10 times cleaner than if you had a single filter. The filters are just turning over dirty water. To remove the dissolved wastes in the tank, the water must be removed and replaced with pure, treated tap water. You remove the old, polluted water and replace it with pure water. Water with no dissolved wastes.

So, keep a reasonably sized filter system, one that will properly move the water to oxygenate it and remove the carbon dioxide and change half the tank water weekly. If you get the gear out for a water change, then change a lot of water. Make it worth your effort.

B
__________________
"Fear not, my young apprentice. Just change the tank water."
BBradbury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 01:19 PM   #15
Aquarium Advice Freak
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Gulf Breeze, Florida
Posts: 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBradbury View Post
Having 10 filters in your aquarium won't make the water 10 times cleaner than if you had a single filter. The filters are just turning over dirty water. To remove the dissolved wastes in the tank, the water must be removed and replaced with pure, treated tap water. You remove the old, polluted water and replace it with pure water. Water with no dissolved wastes.

So, keep a reasonably sized filter system, one that will properly move the water to oxygenate it and remove the carbon dioxide and change half the tank water weekly. If you get the gear out for a water change, then change a lot of water. Make it worth your effort.

B
*************
That's true ....... for the 95% of the population whose tap water is not full of phosphates and nitrates and other chemicals hazardous to the health of your fish or that make your aquarium water cloudy as skim milk. For the rest of us, (you've seen my posts elsewhere), at $1 per gallon for spring water the money factor does come into play a bit.

There is only pet store that sells fish which is served by the (small) water company that serves our area ..... and their tanks look like #%^# ....... almost as cloudy as skim milk. They said it looks even worse when they don't add water conditioners and when it's really bad, they have tap water from another water system carried in by truck !!!!!!

So ...... right now I'm below 5 ppm nitrates in both tanks due to taking a lot of water from my 38 gallon to put into the newly established 29 tank. Even at the 40ppm at my "once a month" schedule .... the water was crystal clear with almost no odor.

Based on my test results ...... I am guessing my new 25%/twice a month interval will keep me under 20-30 ppm nitrate which is safe albeit not optimal. The Purigen and Matrix I added to my filter seems to be helping, too. (I think it was your admonition in another thread that made me switch from once a month to twice a month)

Fortunately, I have artificial plants and pre-filters on both tanks so I am able to remove a higher percent of fish droppings than people with planted tanks when I vacuum the gravel and clean the pre-filters along with water changes.
__________________

__________________
Paul1792 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
ate, filtration, question

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off








» Photo Contest Winners







All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.