First Tank, Second Post

[Pescador22]

I want to first thank everyone who helped me with my first post three weeks ago. I incorporated everyone's suggestions and as you'll see from my signature, I now have what I'm pretty sure is a happy and healthy community tank up and running. I did have some problems, however, so I have some follow up questions.

First, for the sake of background: I inherited a 55 gal tank with three plecos in it. While the tank was clearly cycled, it was badly out of maintenance. With your help, I got the water quality to fairly ideal levels (with daily pwc's and using a new and more accurate test kit), waited a week, gave away two of the plecos, and then got my group of fish.

Out of a total of 12 new fish, one of the neon tetras and one of the clown loaches did pass away (the neon the next morning after I got the group and the loach after a week, just before I was planning a weekly 25% pwc). Every other fish has survived and as far as I can tell, is actually thriving.

Was buying 12 fish probably too much at one time? Assuming water quality was within reason (but see below), would this fact alone be problematic, and why?

The guy at the lfs said the lost fish didn't look diseased, and after testing my water with his kits, told me the water quality was generally good but there were very small levels of ammonia still in the tank. I told him I was using the Aquarium pharmacuticals (AP) master test kit and it consistently showed prior to the deaths that I had no detectible levels of ammonia (I also tested the water on each day of the fish deaths - the results were always 0 ammonia. BTW, the other parameters he tested were consistent with mine: 0 nitrite, about 20 ppm nitrate, and about 7.2 pH). I asked about his test kit later over the phone, and we think he was using an AP nessler-based test for ammonia (he wasn't positive because he sometimes use another type, which is a Tetra brand, he says). My ammonia test is an AP salicate-based type.

Does the different test-type account for the difference in our readings, even though the tests are made by the same company?

I'd like to get some more natural decorations for the tank, some rocks and driftwood (I now have various plastic plants and one 12" long driftwood piece over multi-colored but natural-toned gravel). I've read about the tannin and ph-lowering effect of driftwood, and think both of these effects wouldn't be bad for my group of fish. I do have a concern though. My carbonate hardness is pretty low, from 2-3 degrees (based on my Red Sea tritration test*) (I haven't gotten my GH test kit in the mail yet). From what I understand, with such low KH, my pH could swing quite a bit. Could new driftwood cause this? Would it be a big, quick and detrimental change in pH? Or a small, gradual and ok change? Or something in between?

* Regarding the tritration test - should I account for any change in color from one drop to the next, or am I actually trying to match the color on the card? I ask because after 2-3 drops my color changes, but it isn't the exact shade on the card (which is a darker shade of red).

Lastly, what should I know, if anything, about getting rocks? I'm thinking about a group of three or so grayish tennis ball sized pieces.

As always, thanks in advance!

 

[rubysoho]

Was buying 12 fish probably too much at one time? Assuming water quality was within reason (but see below), would this fact alone be problematic, and why?

well, in general yes, but depending on the fish bioload size and the amount of cleaning you might keep up with, then no. I say yes because when you add too many fish at once the good bacteria cannot immediatly keep up with the toxins and for a while you go through a mini cycle. However, I don't see the immediate deaths as a result of this. You would probably have a much higher death toll had toxins been a problem. Just because a fish doesn't look sick does not mean it is 100% healthy. They go through so much stress that you are bound to have losses. Just gotta take the good with the bad. Now, if more fish start dieing, I would be concerned

Does the different test-type account for the difference in our readings, even though the tests are made by the same company?

could be. I know those test strips are terrible at getting accurate readings. For the liquid tests, not so sure on the chances of getting different results. I'd be on the safe side and do another cleaning. However, it *could* also be that one of the test kits has gotten old and needs replacement.

I also have a low KH and like the look of real driftwood. Keeping up with water changes helps, but if that isn't enough, you can always experiment with adding a small amount of crushed coral (in a bag for easy removal) to help buffer the water. Do not use chemicals. If your pH doesn't go down a whole bunch, it is better to have a stable pH rather than trying to attain a perfect pH. The drifwood won't cause massive swings, just a slow decrease, so just keep an eye on it.

Lastly, what should I know, if anything, about getting rocks? I'm thinking about a group of three or so grayish tennis ball sized pieces.

if you are finding the rocks yourself, look out for metal viening. Any porous rocks are used for raising the pH so take that into consideration as well. You can put a little vinegar on them to test if they will change the pH. (fizzing is the indicator they will raise the pH)

HTH

oh, and a belated welcome to AA!

 

[Fishyfanatic]

Great advice so far from Ruby!

Neon's are also not very hardy. They tend to die from the smallest things. The presence of ammonia could also be contributed to the fish death. If the fish was in the tank for any time period, ammonia would be measurable, even if slight.

IF the driftwood lowered your pH, it would be slight and gradually. And I say IF because I have a large piece of Malaysian driftwood in my 55 gal tank and it has not altered the pH or hardness.

To be safe, I'd buy the rocks from the lfs. It tends to be a little higher priced, but if you are unsure of the type of rock that you collect or purchase from a landscaping business, it could potentially cause problems. As Ruby suggested, test the rock with vinegar. If it bubbles, it will raise the pH.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Was buying 12 fish probably too much at one time? Assuming water quality was within reason (but see below), would this fact alone be problematic, and why?

Adding too many fish at once could cause a cycle spike. That might be the cause of the fish that died. Could also be that those fish at the LFS could have been weak in the first place as well. Got to expect a new fish to die now and then coming from the LFS, due to shipping, or other stresses at the LFS. But a good thing is that should be a very small amount of the time that it happens.

 

[Pescador22]

First, thanks to folks for the helpful responses. As was explained/predicted, my new driftwood pieces ended up not changing my pH or color my water (at least not so far). I also took the too many fish advice to heart, and added only four fish just yesterday to the tank (silver hatchet fish). All the fish are looking great so far!

Also, fyi, I think I may have found the answer to my question
on the issue of the different ammonia tests (nessler versus salicate). I found out that the water conditioner I use when I do PWCs, Amquel, is not compatible with nessler type tests. What happens, according to info elsewhere on the web, is that water treated with Amquel and tested with a nessler-based ammonia test will result in a false positive reading, incorrectly indicating that there is harmful ammonia when there in fact is none (the technical explanation for this is a little confusing to me, but that's the basics of it). The back of Amquel bottle also mentions this, but somehow I didn't remember it or thought the explanation was less clear. So definitely use a salicate-based test when testing water treated with Amquel.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Also, a lot of people say to spread adding new fish a week apart, but my preference is every other week, til you are stocked. And the closer to being stocked, the fewer fish at a time. Early on you might get away with adding 4-5 fish at a time, but when close to being stocked, only add 1 or 2 at a time. As for Amquel, I don't use it. I mostly use Prime.

 

[Pescador22]

Dag, didn't realize I could and probably should go even slower!

While on the topic of stocking, I feel like I'm probably approaching being fully stocked. According to my research, my tetras and hatchets will grow to about 2 inches, with the loaches to about 6 and the pleco to 12. Using the 1 fish inch per gallon rule of thumb, that totals 48 inches. The only other fish I'd really like to get are probably three denison barbs (rose-line sharks). With the barbs, the total will be about 60 inches once all the fish are fully grown. Sound about right? Any other factors I should consider?

Also, I've noticed a lot of folks mention Prime. Any particular reason(s) it's better than Amquel or other conditioners? TIA.

 

[Tiffi]

Congrats to your 55gal!

Was buying 12 fish probably too much at one time?

Adding 12 fishes at once might have caused another mini cycle, since you've added a whole lot of bioload in a very short time and the good, denitrifying bacteria needs some time to reproduce first. But with the neon dying the first/next day, I guess that was just a sickly or weak fish (many neons are).

With the barbs, the total will be about 60 inches once all the fish are fully grown. Sound about right? Any other factors I should consider?

Plecos are big polluters, so just to make sure you could consider getting a centerpiece fish like Bolivian or German Blue Rams. But I guess your wishlist will work out as well. Good job!

 

[Tiffi]

And since it is quite rare, that a newbie cares so well for their fishes, asks such good questions before doing something, and does such wonderful - Kudos to you!!

 

[Lonewolfblue]

As for Prime, a little goes a long ways. Takes much less Prime to treat your water, which means costs less. Also, it's just popular.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

I think what I've read was that Amquel is ok, but Amquel Plus affects the biological filter by removing what the bacteria needs to stay alive, which can cause problems.