Fish Renting

[greenmaji]

I have been wondering about the ethics behind people purchasing fish knowing that they will end up having to return them to the LFS..
I personally would never do this but it seems to be done far too often IMO..

 

[penpitt]

I agree with you 100%. The hobby should be a commitment to the fish's well-being as well as your enjoyment, not just something done to satisfy your own wants with little regards for the fish's long term care.
Of course we can also blame the pet stores since often times they have little knowledge of the fish they are selling or are unwilling to warn customers of the responsibilty involved in the purchase of many of the fish. IMO many of the fish I see offered for sale should not be for sale because of their potential size, temperment and/or special needs.

 

[krap101]

well some people do it because they know or want the excuse to get another tank .

well.. going into ethics, would you rather have the store sell it to someone who just buys the tank that day, fills it with water? and the fish doesnt grow big enough to have to give back? or would you rather have it live to a ripe age (usually) and then be given back? all fish die eventually, its all time. the fish would probally live longer in a tank and be given back instead of live that 6 months or few weeks with the new fish keeper.

 

[greenmaji]

krap101.. I do understand your point.. but that rules out the hobbiest that would be giving the fish the correct home in the first place.. belive it or not it actually happens more then you would think..

I am really concerned about reading that this is done intentionally.. not with intentions of getting a proper home for the fish but to actually return them once they get too big (in most cases this is far from there full size or age) and even experienced hobbiest have trouble deciding when a fish has outgrown a tank it happens far before there are signs of stress IME.

 

[flamingonhot]

like someone told me before...why grow the fish out and have someone else take it and enjoy all the hard work and countless dollars youve put into that fish?

ive done that a few times but if it was something like a tigrinus i wouldnt spend all that money and then have to get rid of it...

some people you really can't blame though..most people that don't know anything about fish (like i used to) didn't think keeping fish was hard. its sounds l;ike all you have to do is put them in water and have a filter. some store know how big the fish will get and only worry about profit so they don't tell you.

if you don't even tell people how big a fish will get or anything like that just to get a profit than you shouldnt even sell fish.

 

[greenmaji]

you guys are right.. this can be misunderstood as to saying that new fishkeepers and lack of knowledge is were Im coming from.. but its not..
Im saying there seems to be some people that know the fish they are getting is just too big and they decide to get it anyway.. even if they are new.. they are told here..
I dont wish to name anyone.. this does happen..
and the new to fish mistake happens to the best of us when we were starting out...
the common pleco was my downfall when I first started.. mine would get to a really respectable size.. around 10 inches.. and then just die on me..
The LFS is also to blame.. with new fishkeepers/hobbiests.. but you can only go so far with that argument.. research really should considered a responsibility, expesicaly if you have been fooled once before by the LFS . now that the internet is widely available.. there really isnt an excuse.. IMO

 

[rich311k]

I agree. It seems wrong to me to purposely buy a fish you know is too large with the plan of taking it back to trade it in. I guess to try and make money or something. You would not do this with a dog. To me any fish I buy is just as much a pet as the warm blooded ones.

 

[greenmaji]

well.. I think Ive heard two ideas on this..
making money... wich cant work.. have you seen the price of fish food?
and wanting variety and getting board of the fish they have.. this to me sounds a little scarry.. 8O

 

[greenmaji]

And I forgot the worst one.. they know what the fish needs they just want it so bad they dont care..

 

[penpitt]

Its also wrong to buy other tank inhabitants with the hopes that somehow,miraculously, you can change their behaviour so they can be kept in a community tank when they really need to be in a species only tank. I've seen a few posts with regards to crayfish and puffers in community tanks. At least you can't "modify" a puffer, unless you trim it's teeth to nubs.

 

[greenmaji]

Well put penpitt.. kudos

 

[talloulou]

Well I was at the Petco in Olympia this weekend and they have a tank full of channel cats. They had a sticky on them saying they grow to 48 inches, but I think they can really get bigger than that. And they weren't selling 1-2, they had a tank full of em. Now I have a hard time believing that the majority of these fish, or perhaps just the lucky ones, aren't going to end up in the local lakes and rivers.

And petsmart still sells pacu like hotcakes.

Most people are just not educated. For example bala sharks are really common in community fish tanks. Most people don't understand their potential at all. My mom always had some in our tanks when I was a kid growing up. Because we liked the idea of having "sharks." They never lived more than a year or two and never got big. It wasn't until I got older that I realized how big a bala shark could get and what we were doing to them by keeping them. I don't doubt for a minute that if we had liked the look of pacus or channel cats we'd have had them when we younger too.

My mother wasn't intentionally trying to be cruel. When it came to picking out our fish when we were little the main thing was price. We weren't allowed to pick out anything expensive and we weren't allowed to get cichlids cause those were the "mean" fish. Other than that we could get anything we wanted......and I don't know if they had those little stickys when we were kids but If they did we never paid them a lick of attention.

On another note, some of the "absolute worst" tanks I have seen have been in schools. God bless the fish that end up in a classroom for preschoolers or kindergarten kids. Those tanks are always nightmares. They almost always have a common pleco in them. Why...because that's what was recommended to the tired teacher who went to petsmart complaining about her algae problem. And 9 times out of 10 the kids in the class get to take turns feeding the fish each day. 8O The tanks are horrible but the kids love em. And maybe when they grow up they will be really into tanks and truely learn how to do one the right way because they experienced their first tank in school.

 

[Jchillin]

*Just adding my two cents*

I had an experience that shames me now that I know better. I set up my 30 gal tall tank with the erroneous understanding of the 1" per gal rule. The problem was, I was not informed of the potential adult size, just the present size. So, off I went and, with no guidance from the LFS, I stocked that 30 gal tank as follows:

3 Marble Angels
2 Bala Sharks
6 albino corys
4 black mollies
4 platys
2 common plecos

All of them were either 1 or 2 inches when purchased. If I knew back then what I know now, I would have returned most of these guys, which is a part of the problem.

To put things into perspective, a local appliance retailer has very stict rules when a customer comes in for an air-conditioner. They will take the customer through the entire ritual of window size, room size and required BTU's. They will not sell you "what you want" unless you understand that you will not be able to exchange it or return it for the purchase price.

I thought about the correlation between this policy and that of the typical LFS. Not one customer walked away in frustration and as far as I could tell, they didn't lose one customer.

It would be nice if the LFS could utilize the same policy. Or is there a fear that if they did it, some other LFS would make the sale?

In my case, if I can remember...the total cost of all of those fish was about $30.00. The A/C's can run from $100 to $600.

Weird.

 

[megladonsharky]

I was going to rent some skunk louches to erradicate a snail problem in my three gallon tank till I asked on here and found out the two of them in there would not be good ...

 

[tetrin]

i think the issue is being somewhat blown out of proportion.

i love fish. and i want to study the behaviors and nature of as many species i can. so i buy all kinds of fish, even when i know that they will get too big for my tank. but as long as they are with me, i try to make the stay as enjoyable for both parties. i take the best care i can. but when the time comes to give them up, i'd readily give them to my lfs (they don't give me any money for fish) and let someone better equipped to give them a better home. if i had enough money or resources, i'd definitely try to accommodate them.

the bottomline should be to enjoy your hobby without causing any pain to anyone. and i think fish are not sufficiently evolved to experience any permanent bonding with humans (barring a few oscars maybe) on an emotional level.

with mbunas, the only way to get a community setup going is to give up the extra males after they hit maturity (with most of them anyway).

 

[greenmaji]

tetrin... you say you want to study the behaviors and nature of as many species possible..
It seems to me that if you dont have the appropriate room for the fish that it will not behave naturally..
the idea that people are being intentionally cruel was not intended.. lack of responsibility if the information was widely available at the time, yes..
I think that the lack of exchange on the fish might work with expensive fish.. I dont see alot of pet stores selling fresh water rays..

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I just wanted to add a comment.

We have been returning fish alot lately. The molly because he needed a larger tank and we didn't have the room in the 29 gal for him (where he was SUPPOSED to go). He was originally purchased because I was under the impression of the 1 inch per gal rule. (This was before AA). So I assumed that since he wouldn't get longer than 5 inches, he was fine for a 5 gal tank. Uh oh. Then along came the betta which knocked the molly out into the 10 gal tank. Better, but not what he should actually be in (29 gal). The African had fry and we needed to setup a grow out tank. We really don't have the funds to just go out and buy tanks when fish give birth. And I couldn't bare to let the other Africans eat the fry. So of course out went the Parrots and African Butterfly fish from the 29 gal tank. I feel bad for letting them go but it was what was best for them. We had intended for them to end up in the 150 gal tank but the Africans are growing so fast that we realized there was no way that they would ever be large enough to go in that tank. The Parrots in the 150 were being harrassed because the Africans are hitting their sexual maturity. I'd rather return them to the lfs where they can be properly cared for than have them harrassed in my care. I picked a lfs 3 hours away because I know that they take VERY good care of their fish. There are not Oscars in 10 gal tanks. They are all housed in very long tanks (I'd say at least 200 gal long). So I drove out of my way just to give them a great home. I don't think thats irresponsible or un-ethical. When we purchased them I was under the impression that the parrots would grow at the same rate as the Africans (listened to lfs employees). After realizing that they wouldn't, I didn't want them to be tortured by other fish.

There are some people that I think intentionally over stock their tanks to the point where it is bursting at the seams or do not pick tank mates wisely. When I mean wisely, buying a small tank and stuffing it with livebearers is not wise unless you are able to keep buying tanks for the fry or you just let them get eaten.

My nephew goes to a day care and they have a 29 gal tank with 8 fancy goldfish in it. I cringe everytime I see it. The water is about 4 inches from the top of the tank. The kids love it because the fish are big and they can see them. But the fish do not look happy. They are bumping into each other and not looking too healthy. I want to say something to them about it, but I don't want to sound mean. The woman that runs the day care said that they like having many fish in it because then the fish can have friends. I suggested tetras or something small and put them in schools but she laughed at me and said, the kids can't see those tiny fish. Then she told me about how she saw African Cichlids that she thought would be perfect. I grabbed Hunter and bolted from the place. Ugh.

 

[mr funktastic]

i am currently "renting" a black ghost knife. the reason that alot of people rent fish is that they dont have the money or room to buy a tank large enough for the fish that they want. i have the ghost knife in a 20 gal right now and he is still very small at about 4-5 inches or so. i unfortunatly will never be able to get like a 500 gallon tank to house the fish. i plan on giving it back to big als which has plently of room for him and will give him the full care he requires. i do feel bad that i am not going to be keeping him for a long time but this fish is just sooo unbelievable that it is a shame he gets to big. i have returned many fish but only because of compatibility or room issues. i gree that it is wrong to rent fish unless the conditions of it stay in your home and the pet dtores home are ideal for its health.thats my 2 cents

 

[tetrin]

It seems to me that if you dont have the appropriate room for the fish that it will not behave naturally..

IMO none of the fish behave naturally in the glass cages we make for them. so to say we are providing a natural environment for a fish is smply an overstatement.

but depending on the current size of the fish and its growth rate, any fish can be given an appropriate home. species that grow to a large size can still be housed in smaller aquariums as juvies and small adults. if you look at mongabay, any species that attain a large adult size has two aquarium sizes listed.

so, my point was if someone doesn't have the time or resources to get or build a 300g tank for their overgrown balas or clowns after they outgrown their 75g (say), the next best option is giving them up. i find nothing wrong in the process.
lack of space or money shouldn't be a deterrent in enjoying these amazing fish.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I agree Tetrin. I don't see anything wrong with giving up a fish if it is for its own good. In fact, I have read numerous posts where someone suggested buying 10 of a specie and then returning the excess males after they can be sexed months later. It's the same thing. Nothing wrong with it.