Fishless cycle ammonia is not going down

[jrizza]

Hello,
My wife and I just moved into a new place and I could not wait to set up the fish tank. I really enjoyed having it in college and made quite a few mistakes- this time I was determined to start it right with fishless cycling! I did a lot of searching on the internet and found myself at this site, where I got most of my information and planned the process.

I bought regular janitorial ammonia, and set up the tank. I threw most of what I had leftover from my college days away as I'm sure it has expired (it's been 3-6 years...) but there was no date on the dechlorinator (tetra) so I kept that. After letting the aquarium run for a few days, I started off with what I thought was 6ppm. I think it was much more than that because 6ppm is the last color on the chart! After a week of looking at a very dark green vial, I did a pwc and brought the ammonia level to 4ppm. Today is 3 weeks since I did the pwc. The ammonia is still at 4ppm, 0 nitrites, 0 nitrates 7.4 ph. It's a 10g tank with a sponge and bio balls filter inserts. I've got the heater at about 82 and the air stone is pumping a ton of air. Do I have to be more patient? Or, do you think something else went wrong? I am starting to think I should have bought a new dechlorinator.

Thoughts?

 

[threnjen]

I would just buy a new dechlorinator and try again.

Tell me some other stuff about your tank -
Sounds like you are using the liquid API test kit, correct?
What is your pH?
Is your tap water hard or soft, any idea?

 

[jrizza]

I am using a liquid API test kit.
PH is 7.4. I have not tested KH or GH as those bottles specifically were past expiration. I threw them out. Maybe I should test that.

Should I dose the tank with new dechlorinator? Or do a large water change and try again?

Also, for reference, how long does it normally take for me to see the ammonia number start dropping?

 

[cfosgate]

I would get new a new test kit and new dechlorinator then do a 100% wc and start over. It feels like you have chloramines in your water due to old dechlorinator and couldn't start the nitrification process. You should probably start to see a small number of nitrites between weeks 1 and 3 at least but every tank is different because every environment is different. User mileage may vary.

 

[jrizza]

Thanks Thren! After you posted I went out and bought a shiny new bottle of seachem prime, did a full water change, and today I have nitrites AND nitrates!
The dechlorinator I had left over must have been too old.

 

[Pandicorn]

Thanks Thren! After you posted I went out and bought a shiny new bottle of seachem prime, did a full water change, and today I have nitrites AND nitrates!

The dechlorinator I had left over must have been too old.

Nice! The hard part is for the nitrites to disappear! Oh gosh it's almost been a week -_-


Cycling 45 Gallon. ???

 

[jrizza]

Well, it turns out I posted too soon. My ammo, and nitrites haven't budged since I last posted. I thought something might have happened and stalled the cycle, so I pinched some fish food in there. That was a week ago. Ammo has been sitting at 4 and hasn't changed. What am I doing wrong? Surely it can't be this hard...

10g
Aquaclear20 HOB (two sponges and "aqua clear bio-max insert")
T8 bulb
Two baby water sprite plants
Aquarium gravel
Six small pieces of granite
Plastic java fern like plant
Molded-rock-formation aquarium decor
Water heater
Bendable bubble wand

4ppm Ace janitorial ammonia
Seachem Prime

 

[jrizza]

Tank has been running for 8 weeks.

Today is day 20 after new dechlorinator and 100% water change.

 

[pip walters]

I don't think the cycle has stalled.... it hasn't even started judging by what you have said.
A lot of folks on here don't believe in it, but try adding some cultured bacteria. Get hold of Hagen (fluval) CYCLE. Do a 50% wc to reduce the unecessary amount of ammonia, add the recommended amount of cycle for your tank volume and I can ALMOST guarantee you will see a change.

The bacteria that live in the filter do not produce spores, so where do we think they are going to appear from? I personally have had great results using bottled bb cultures.

Why do I say unnecessary amount of ammonia? I have yet to find anyone who can explain why 4ppm is recommended. A stocking of fish in an aquarium is unlikely to ever produce enough ammonia to reach 4ppm ammonia with correct filtration and a good maintenance regime.

 

[jrizza]

I think I figured it out. Could it be that my ph swung too low???
It's around 6, or lower....

 

[aqua_chem]

The bacteria that live in the filter do not produce spores, so where do we think they are going to appear from? I personally have had great results using bottled bb cultures.

They're pretty ubiquitous. They're found in soil, water, etc, and will generally come in with the water. As far as bottled cultures go, many of the ones available aren't the right type of bacteria, ie, they won't colonize the filter properly, but I believe some brands are now starting to use the right ones, so it may be hit or miss. At the very least, I don't see it hurting anything.

Why do I say unnecessary amount of ammonia? I have yet to find anyone who can explain why 4ppm is recommended. A stocking of fish in an aquarium is unlikely to ever produce enough ammonia to reach 4ppm ammonia with correct filtration and a good maintenance regime.

It's a completely arbitrary number that someone at some point pulled out of a hat. What's important isn't the concentration that a biofilter can break down, but the rate at which it can break down waste, which is pretty difficult to measure. We use a larger concentration because it creates a sufficiently large reservoir of ammonia to break down, and because we can reasonably measure it in that range. That being said, it's a concentration that has been used extensively for years, so we KNOW it works even if it is overkill.

 

[aqua_chem]

I think I figured it out. Could it be that my ph swung too low???

It's around 6, or lower....

When the pH dips below 6, nitrification essentially ceases. You should do a large water change to restore your pH, and redoes ammonia to 4 ppm. That's interesting though, as you really shouldn't see a pH drop without an increase in nitrite.


By chance, do you know if you have really soft water where you live?

 

[FishyBusiness]

When I started my 90 gallon tank a few years ago, I dosed to 4 ppm also and after a week, I ordered an 'active mag filter' from AngelsPlus. It was $7 plus $7 shipping. Came in 2 days, plopped it in my tank. Continued dosing, and took just a week after that. Did a massive WC, and was able to fully stock my mbuna cichlids immediately with no issues after that.

So do as said above with the water change, and if you know someone who has an aquarium, borrow some of their media and it should get along quickly. Or if you don't, order the active filter from AngelsPlus. A lot of others here, including myself, have done that with great success!

 

[pip walters]

They're pretty ubiquitous. They're found in soil, water, etc, and will generally come in with the water. As far as bottled cultures go, many of the ones available aren't the right type of bacteria, ie, they won't colonize the filter properly, but I believe some brands are now starting to use the right ones, so it may be hit or miss. At the very least, I don't see it hurting anything.




It's a completely arbitrary number that someone at some point pulled out of a hat. What's important isn't the concentration that a biofilter can break down, but the rate at which it can break down waste, which is pretty difficult to measure. We use a larger concentration because it creates a sufficiently large reservoir of ammonia to break down, and because we can reasonably measure it in that range. That being said, it's a concentration that has been used extensively for years, so we KNOW it works even if it is overkill.

That's interesting. Most people think bb are not transfered in water.

So can they be present in tap water despite all the chemical additions?

I had great results with hagen 'cycle' when in the aquarium trade around 20 years ago. At work we use jbl denitrol and also have seen increased nitrification.

 

[FishyBusiness]

The BB isn't held in the water column itself, but most of it in the filter with some on the substrate and decor.

 

[aqua_chem]

That's interesting. Most people think bb are not transfered in water.



So can they be present in tap water despite all the chemical additions?



I had great results with hagen 'cycle' when in the aquarium trade around 20 years ago. At work we use jbl denitrol and also have seen increased nitrification.

Well, if you think about it, where does the bacteria come from? I've cycled a sponge filter in a bucket under a sink where it had no inputs other than water in the beginning, some dry ferts, and janitorial grade ammonia. While the chloramines in the water kill off much of the bacteria, it's far from sterile. Some bugs may also come in airborne, but I can't help but think that air is a relatively minor source. Either way, the "add water, wait" method of cycling a tank has worked fairly well for many years, so the bugs have been consistently been getting in somehow.

As far as liquid additives go, I'm generally very distrustful of them, being as a number of them contain the the wrong species, or have been sitting on the shelves, unrefrigerated, for weeks, likely killing much of the viable bacteria that they once contained. To be fair though, I haven't used them much myself.

 

[aqua_chem]

The BB isn't held in the water column itself, but most of it in the filter with some on the substrate and decor.

I've bolded your statement for emphasis. The vast majority is affixed to substances, but there is a tiny minority free-floating that get shed from the main colonies attached to the surfaces of your tank.

 

[jrizza]

This morning:
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: .25ppm

O baby! Yyyyeeeaahah! so close!

 

[jrizza]

I've been adding 4ppm every day. Nitrites have been steadily dropping. Almost time to get the fishies

 

[FishyBusiness]

That's exciting! I remember that feeling still to this day lol! When I could fully transfer 4ppm in 24 hours, I think I did it another couple days just to be sure haha. Just remember to do a massive WC to bring the nitrates down preferably to 20 but below 40 for sure before you get some fishies!