Gold or not?

[coralbandit]

Found this;
There are several reports of total albinism in both freshwater and marine fish, however, frequently captured albino fish are only reported in aquarium magazines and local newspapers.[38]
The incidence of albinism can be artificially increased in fish by exposing the eggs to heavy metals (e.g. arsenic, cadmium, copper, mercury, selenium, zinc).[39]
I took this from ;
Albinism in biology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I think I may "remineralise" in an custom fashion again!
I have one pair of my commons(possibly the parents as they are my favorites) still in their own tank!
They get the mix again as they are still on holiday even with massive waterchanges and bloodworms!

 

[Gillie]

I've only seen 1 picture of a true albino ram (it's floating around in one of my posts here, but I'm not looking through those suckers) but it was completely colorless with red pupils, unlike what some other people think of as albino rams, which are poorly breed golds with typical red eyes and black pupils.
I am very anxious to see what yours turn out to look like, my guess is they will become amazing golds, but I really want to see them stay that yellow color.

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[PoppaRyno]

Could it be a random throw from breeding a gold into the line for whatever purposes yrs ago? And now its done the 1 in a million gold gene batch. As in after every x amount of batches y could show up present in a small percentage of eggs. Its common in lots of breeding lines to see this as a rarity when its just a small genetic math anamolly. I dont know, but sure is pretty.

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[coralbandit]

I am very anxious to see what yours turn out to look like, my guess is they will become amazing golds, but I really want to see them stay that yellow color.

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I hope they stay yellow also!
How silly of me to think I would remineralise only the one pairs tank.
Everybody got the switch started this AM!
We'll see if the minerals(which were not calculated by me but by a very knowledgable member on another site) are what made the difference.
The process is simple and cheap but like a chef,it is all in the mix .

 

[PoppaRyno]

Hope you can make your own yellow/gold line man. Id be interested.

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[coralbandit]

Could it be a random throw from breeding a gold into the line for whatever purposes yrs ago? And now its done the 1 in a million gold gene batch. As in after every x amount of batches y could show up present in a small percentage of eggs. Its common in lots of breeding lines to see this as a rarity when its just a small genetic math anamolly. I dont know, but sure is pretty.

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Thanks!
That is a possibility but I sure hope not!
I have never owned a gold,my added stock last fall were from Yunite(hopefully true stock),and my original were from a respected breeder in Holland according to my LFS owner(I do tend to believe him since we have a 30+ year relationship.
I started to remineralise my water again this am(rain day for me)and can't wait to see what comes from this!

 

[PoppaRyno]

Good luck man. Im hopin for the best for you.

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[Andy Sager]

Ok so here is where I am at.
Probably not a "true gold" yet,but if I can pull a pair from this group and focus on light/less coloring then I will have created my own golds!
Where the @#$% is Andy to tell me the difference between apples and oranges NOW!
They are all mikrogeophagus ramirezi, just different colors like swordtails.
It took me 2-3 years but through not uncareful mixing I created my own kio swordtails from solid color stock.
My red/marigold females would shoot every color under the sun.
I think I may have a shot at my own golds!
Nobody else even wants to say what it looks like?
It sure looks gold to me!

Another week goes by and still no traditional GBR coloring showing on whole tank!
No matter how they turn out I will hold on to several pairs of these guys I think.
I checked pretty thorough today with flash light on these guys eyes.
They are colored.
I mention this wondering with all nature offers and dictates where are the albino rams??
Tell me I may get golds out of this Andy!

Sorry for not being on every thread but, as you may have read in my hatchery thread, I've got Babies, Babies, everywhere Babies lol But I am never more than a PM away.

To the Rams, question.....
The only natural colored Ram is the Blue Ram. Golds and all the other colors available today have been created through selective breeding so there is no ( or not to my knowledge) "standard" for what a gold ram is. Obviously, your parent fish have some gold ram genetics in them from who knows how far back which is how you got this/these fish. They should not change from yellow to blue so no need to wait for that.
If possible, you want to breed this fish with another gold/yellow Ram to keep the percentage of gold babies up. Mixing a gold with a blue should yield more blues than golds as per the Punnett square calculations. Sexing them should be done via the first few dorsal spines. The males have longer spines like a rooster's crest.
Albinoism is a recessive gene. Under the right circumstances, it comes out. In the wild, Albino animals are rare because they stand out and are usually victims of predation early in life. In an aquarium, albino strains can be bolstered by breeding albino fishes or fish that carry the albino gene mutation together. Personally, I haven't seen any albino rams before so they must be few are far between. Pink eyes are the give away not the gold. If you get any fish with pink eyes and no melenistic features in the body, I'd breed those together to get a higher percentage of that colored baby. Possibly subjecting the eggs to the chemicals mentioned in the other post might increase the probability of the albino mutation which I would use as the start of the line. In order to lock in that gene to make it dominant, you would then breed the F1s back to the parents before breeding siblings.

So to answer your Apple & Orange question: If it's yellow or gold, it would, to my knowledge, be classified as NOT a Blue Ram ( GBR) You can call it whatever you want.

Hope this helps

 

[coralbandit]

Thank you so much for your response Andy.
These guys do seem more yellow then gold at this point.
I am more then thrilled to think they will not change(I do trust your judgement!).
Fish are fish either way and these guy are now special to me!
I have been so bored and frustrated with these guys I got some pearl gouramis(where the whole apple oranges thing comes from!!!)
I will put forth an extra effort with these guys.
I don't think looking back the water did make much difference as it was only 1/2 th strength for amazon makeup(really nothing special).
BUT on the gold is back there somewhere(it is I know...) but wasn't the gold just chosen regular "GBR" that lacked color as some of my many over the last 1 1/2 years of breeding these guys have turned out ?
If someone else did it, couldn't I?
I read your wigglers 2
and you are doing great.
You post of not getting to keep them all(1,000 +) makes me feel so much better!!
Thank you!

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks:
Here's what I know about the Gold Ram: They have been around for a long time. They were derived from wild Rams ( which are blue by nature). This may have been done via selective breeding for color OR by chemically altering situations that altered the color genetics of the fish. I don't know which was done. I do know that way back when, experiments were done with exposing fish to gamma radiation to alter their genetics and for all I know, this was how Gold rams were created. It's also possible that the chemicals mentioned in a previous post were experimented with and created this result. Again, I don't know but I do know that there are no naturally wild Gold Rams in the Amazon.

As for the not keeping all my new fry, there will always be a percentage of every spawn that just will not survive. They are pre destined to die. This is natural. So while I always get excited when i see so many babies, I only expect to be able to grow and sell 100-150 fish from any spawn (large or small). If I get that, I'm happy

Hope this helps

 

[coralbandit]

Quick update;
The separated pair laid eggs on Thurs and I became ill on Friday!
Eggs are gone this am.
Hopefully I will get more chances?
On the side they may all be "coloring in" a little?
Not coloring up like normal GBR but some are getting the spot very faintly now.
Hopefully their weekly water change (yet to be done) may help to restore them to original lack of color(who ever asks for that?!).

 

[coralbandit]

Ok I got picture thing fixed!

This is the pair I believe I removed to their own 29 , taken while still in 30b.

Crappy pic of them with their eggs in the 29 (first set of eggs).

 

[michellev512]

They are beautiful!

 

[Delapool]

Wow!!!!

 

[Reefer James]

Sweet fish

How shiny is it. First picture looks german gold then I kinda see angel ram..

 

[Rivers2k]

These are beautiful. PM'd you.

 

[coralbandit]

They are beautiful!

Thank You.

Wow!!!!

I am very proud ,and seriously LUCKY!

Sweet fish

How shiny is it. First picture looks german gold then I kinda see angel ram..

Most Gold(not faded whatever) ram I have ever seen!
No such beast as a angel ram, just poor genetics and bad choices by people!
This fish in particular,well all of mine, come from exceptionally great stock,not bad stock continuously inbred .

These are beautiful. PM'd you.

Got your message and replied!

 

[Reefer James]

Most Gold(not faded whatever) ram I have ever seen!
No such beast as a angel ram, just poor genetics and bad choices by people!
This fish in particular,well all of mine, come from exceptionally great stock,not bad stock continuously inbred .

So the use of mules would be a bad choice by people for their poor genetics? Or all of the designer clownfish in the saltwater hobby would be bad choices by people? Angel ram are not ballon rams with health concerns from inbreeding. I think your statement was a little off.

 

[coralbandit]

If an angel ram is not a balloon then what is it?
Angels and rams can not cross breed.

 

[Reefer James]

Despite the name it's not a cross breed between angels and rams haha. Angel rams is a color variation of the species.. A balloon ram is an inbred with stomach mutations and will live a shorter life..