Green Water - Help Please?

[bausman480]

Hi all,

My family is having a huge problem with the floating green algae... And we don't know how best to fix it so that it doesn't return.

It all started in july - by that time we've had our 90Gal aquarium set up for about 6 months. The light was turned on consistently for about 4-6 hours a day in the evening, and off the rest of the day. We've always consistently fed the same flake food in the same quantities, twice a day.

No new fish additions happened during that time. The room also got no sunlight (it has a window on the other end of the room, but it was covered with drapes all the time). Then, over the course of about two weeks, the water became completely green, we couldn't see the fish a few inches away from the glass.

Small, 20%/day water changes didn't help. The water just became greener and greener once we stopped with the daily changes. Drastic water changes (with relocation to a new aquarium, cleaning out the 90gal, putting fish back in properly) didn't help - the water became pea-soup green in a week. We tried not turning on their aquarium light for a few weeks - didn't help. We tried reducing the amount of food we feed by more than half - didn't work. All three together (water changes, reduction of food and elimination of light) did not stop the pea-soup from coming back.

We have since moved to a new house. Since you can't move the 90gal without removing the water, we had to set up a new tank. After the fish went in, it took about week for the pea-soup to come back.

These are the fish we have in the 90gal. There are no live plants of any kind. One black moor goldfish about the size of a fist, three small brown-algae eating fish (I forget their name... they're golden in colour and have pink "dots" on their head), 5 silver dollars, 2 gourami, and about 4 small random fish... different coloured mollies.
So you can see there is not enough fish to over-crowd the 90gal aquarium...

Also, we'v tried moving the fish to an aquarium with nothing - no rocks, no gravel, no plastic plants. Just the fish. And the water would become pea-soup-like again in a matter of weeks.

We really don't know what to do... There are several ways of eliminating the algae, but we dn't know what's causing it, so it just keeps coming back.

Please help?
Alla

 

[bluerose]

I would suspect it is your filter that is your 'contaminant'... with all the moving around you've done though I would watch for a cycle.

If this is Green Water, one of the more effective treatments (I think) is to do a large PWC, leave the tank completely dark- not just lights off, lights off and tank covered, not even to feed the fish (they'll be fine for several days)- for 4-5 days, then do another decent size PWC. There are other things as well (such as a UV sterilizer) but this treatment works well or so I have heard (and is cheap).

I would wait for the experts to chime in though- I have never personally dealt with Green Water myself.

 

[bausman480]

Hi Bluerose,

Thank you for answering.
We have a stand-alone filter (the box kind that stands below the aquarium) that was advertized as enough to maintain a 120gal. It has layers of different sponges, a layer of carbon, and a layer of phosphate absorbing crystals. We clean out the filter about once a month.

I read somewhere that covering the tank for a few days doesn't get rid of the algae, but rather just turns them colourless, and they turn green again as soon as there is any light... Is that true?

 

[Tommy Gun]

Hey Bausman480 ~ sorry to hear about your troubles.

Generally, algae blooms like this are caused by too much light (which includes natural light, such as sunlight from a window) or an over abundance of nutrients such as nitrate and/or phosphate...or, of course, both too much light and too many nutrients. In order to help you better, it would be very useful to know what your water parameters are, if you do, in fact, test for things such as ammonia, nitrIte, nitrAte, phosphate, pH, etc...etc...etc...

The thing to keep in mind here is that algae differs from plants in that it gains all of its 'food' from the water so these water parameters are going to be essential in your finding the cause, the "cure", and then preventing the problem from coming back.

I read somewhere that covering the tank for a few days doesn't get rid of the algae, but rather just turns them colourless, and they turn green again as soon as there is any light... Is that true?

I'm not sure if that is true or not, but I can tell you that it does work. In conjunction with removing all of the light that the algae benifits from, the reason bluerose mentions that you should avoid feeding the fish is because this means no new nutrients are being produced, while at the same time, the huge population of algae is exhausting what is currently available. So, in reality, this is a two-pronged approach.

Out of curiousity, what type of lights do you have over your tank?

We've always consistently fed the same flake food in the same quantities, twice a day.

You may want to try feeding only once a day...which means you would cut the amount of food you are feeding now in half. Despite the appearance of your fish looking/acting hungry, eventually you are creating a scenario much like Pavlov's dog in that your fish recognize humans as being the dinner bell when, in reality, they can live easily, and in some cases, be much more healthy when eating what they should eat versus as much as they can eat. This is made more important by the fact that we are keeping our fish in a very tiny body of water (relatively speaking) that can become polluted in very short order if we are not careful.

Additionally, it is important to understand that even if your fish eat every last bit of food (i.e. none is decaying in the water), the food is still making an impact on your water quality, only this time, in the form of fish waste.

 

[CaptainAhab]

How often do you gravel vac? Those sponges in the canister should be cleaned (rinsed in dechlor or tank water) at least every 2 weeks. Have you tested your water for nitrate and/or phosphate readings? When was the last time you changed the carbon and the phos crystals?

Might also be worthwhile testing your tap water for nitrates and phosphate. That will give you a good idea of where your starting point will be. Ro or distilled would probably be better but you should be able to get by just fine w/ tap as well.

Something is feeding the algae, the key is to find out what and rectify it. Covering that tank will get rid of the algae you have now but the root cause still exists and it'll just come back, that's what needs to be fixed

 

[CaptainAhab]

Nice call on the lights. What kind and possibly most important how old are the bulbs

 

[Tommy Gun]

how old are the bulbs

Exactly what my next question would have been. Hope I didn't throw anyone off too much by editing my post five times in four minutes. Not used to such an active forum!

 

[bausman480]

Tommy Gun, CaptainAhab, thank you for replying.

One correction - the crystals in my filter are ammonia-eliminating, not phosphate-eliminating.

Unfortunately, I do not have many testing kits, but I do have pH and phosphate. I just tested right now, and I got 6.6-6.8 pH and 2.0 ppm Phosphate.

I'm going to go in order of things posted.

Out of curiousity, what type of lights do you have over your tank?

The light bulb says 32 watt, fluorescent. Its about 10 months old.
Its only been in use for a few hours a day though, if that matters.

Despite the appearance of your fish looking/acting hungry, eventually you are creating a scenario much like Pavlov's dog in that your fish recognize humans as being the dinner bell when, in reality, they can live easily, and in some cases, be much more healthy when eating what they should eat versus as much as they can eat.

Thing is, our aquarium is in the living room, the room where we are most often during the day... So its not a Pavlovian response to seeing humans, its more of a response to the time of day.. Because in the morning they are all excited and crowd around, swimming actively until you feed them. As soon as they are fed, they don't care about people coming up to the glass tank. Same thing at about 6 PM at night - they start going crazy until you feed them, and then don't care once they're not hungry.
Are you sure they'll be fine fed regularly once a day? Because we really don't give a lot per feeding... we've actually been a little bit paranoid about overfeeding since struggling a lot with that in the beginning, when we got our first 20gal.

How often do you gravel vac? Those sponges in the canister should be cleaned (rinsed in dechlor or tank water) at least every 2 weeks. Have you tested your water for nitrate and/or phosphate readings? When was the last time you changed the carbon and the phos crystals?

Gravel vac - err, I'm not sure.. about as often as we do PWC, which isn't that often. Maybe once a month? Rarer? Yeah, we definitely rinse the sponges less regularly than once in two weeks. I have tested for phosphate (see above), I don't have a nitrate testing kit. The last time we changed the crystals was... a month or a month and a half ago.

Might also be worthwhile testing your tap water for nitrates and phosphate. That will give you a good idea of where your starting point will be.

I can't test for nitrate, but I will test for phosphate momentarily.

 

[CaptainAhab]

2.0 is medium high in the phosphate but I'm just guessing that your nitrates are whack too. If you have a lfs near by, get a sample test. If they have liquid over strips push for that test. BTW: A nitrate test kit is one of the more important ones.

I'll also assume that the light tube is a garden variety one? You might do well to replace it w/ one meant for an aquarium.

 

[bausman480]

I'll see if I can get a nitrate kit. Why is it one of the most important ones? How do nitrates affect the aquarium? What do they influence? Because going out and buying something is a huge problem in my house, and I have to justify purchases that I want to make to my parents.

The light tube was from the aquarium store (Big Al's, if you know it), and it said on the box that it was specifically for aquariums..

 

[ksteady]

You should really have a complete test kit.... You might try to find the API Master Test Kit. About 35 bucks in my neck of the woods. Should also read up on the bacteria cycle of aqauriums to help you understand where different parts of the cycle ( Ammonia, NitrIte, NitrAte...... ) are coming from and there effects on it. There are several posts within this site with all the info you could ever need...

 

[Tommy Gun]

2.0 ppm Phosphate.

IMO, that would be the second problem...the first being the lack of test kits. If I could give a very friendly and gentle nudge, I think adding an ammonia, nitrIte, and nitrAte test kit to your collection would give you some great insight into what is causing this problem.

I completely agree that testing your tap water is a great idea because you want to find the source of the phosphate. If it is not in the tap water, then you may want to look at the type and amount of food you are using as most, if not all foods contain phosphate ~ the 'trick' being how to minimize that.

The light bulb says 32 watt, fluorescent. Its about 10 months old.

CaptainAhab may have some more insight on this than I do but it is my understanding that the number of hours a florescent bulb has been used over a given period of time may not be as important as the age of the bulb overall. And if not, it is still a pretty good rule of thumb to change bulbs once in a while because they light they give off degrades and may become more ideal for nussiance algaes. As far as I have noticed, this seems to be a more popular subject in the saltwater world but I am sure the same things apply in both cases.

Another thing to consider is gas exchange. For example, having some continual movement at the surface of the water in your tank will not only help ensure that the water will contain adequate amounts of dissolved oxygen in the water for your fish, but it will also help release the carbon dioxide, which plants, including algae benifit from.

Are you sure they'll be fine fed regularly once a day?

Absolutely...and I can tell you, I was skeptical about this myself but now, years after I switched to once a day feeding, I've seen no ill effects. Put it this way, who would be feeding these fish if they were in their natural habitat? Even if this is not a Pavlovian effect, many of our fish are opportunistic eaters...meaning, they will eat as much as they can at every chance they can because they cannot guarantee when their next meal will come along. In fact, this is also why even the most herbavorious fish will swallow up a tank mate that will fit in their mouth despite the fact that it isn't really on their preferred menu.

 

[Tommy Gun]

How do nitrates affect the aquarium? What do they influence?

All three compounds, ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte are all forms of nitrogen. The first two, as you know, are very toxic to our fish so we are concerned about them for that reason first. NitrAte is not nearly as toxic to fish (inverts are another story), but it is one of the more easily used forms of nitrogen that plants can use so we monitor this number for that reason and try to keep them low as a way to slow algae growth (although we can't completely stop it).

Additionally, most of us monitor and base our water change routine on nitrates based upon the assumption that other chemicals (phosphate being one of them) are also increasing in the water at a similar rate. Since we can't, or don't want to bother with testing for 1000 different things, most of us simply set a 'threshold' for nitrates and once our test kit shows us that our nitrate levels have reached that number, we do a water change. Eventually though, we can test less often because we see the pattern...for example, I know that with my current stocking, fish size, feeding, etc...etc...etc..., I need to change about 30% of the water weekly to stay under 40 ppm nitrate. However, I still test for nitrates once in a while just to make sure the pattern hasn't changed.

Make sense?

 

[bausman480]

Make sense?

Very much. Thank you!

I completely agree that testing your tap water is a great idea because you want to find the source of the phosphate. If it is not in the tap water, then you may want to look at the type and amount of food you are using as most, if not all foods contain phosphate ~ the 'trick' being how to minimize that.

The tap water has 0.0 phosphate. The flake food says "feed 2-3 times a day" and also says "phosphorous - 1%"... Is that a lot?

Another thing to consider is gas exchange. For example, having some continual movement at the surface of the water in your tank will not only help ensure that the water will contain adequate amounts of dissolved oxygen in the water for your fish, but it will also help release the carbon dioxide, which plants, including algae benifit from.

Well, we have an aerator on the bottom of the aquarium - the bubbles obviously float up and create some turbulence on the surface. The filter as well, the way its set up, is creating continuous movement on the surface.

Absolutely...and I can tell you, I was skeptical about this myself but now, years after I switched to once a day feeding, I've seen no ill effects. Put it this way, who would be feeding these fish if they were in their natural habitat? Even if this is not a Pavlovian effect, many of our fish are opportunistic eaters...meaning, they will eat as much as they can at every chance they can because they cannot guarantee when their next meal will come along. In fact, this is also why even the most herbavorious fish will swallow up a tank mate that will fit in their mouth despite the fact that it isn't really on their preferred menu.

That makes sense... the food can says to feed 2-3 times daily, though. Does that matter at all, or do they all say that?

I will see if I can get that master testing kit. I saw it for $35 in walmart some time ago, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem to get.

 

[bluerose]

Remember that the food companies like to sell their product...

Many members feed their fish once daily and skip a day or two a week. Mine often go a weekend without food-- they do fine. Quite happy to see me when I get back, and I do feed a bit extra before I leave, but other than that it doesn't really make a difference. Most of them are a bit chubby as it is and I don't feed much...

The test kit is really essential, as are PWCs. I'll note that filter sponges should ONLY be rinsed in tank water (best if you're going to dispose of that water- IE if you've already pulled it out of the tank during a PWC and it's in a bucket) or in dechlorinated water. The chlorine in tap water will kill your beneficial bacteria. Also, you don't need to change the regular type filters (carbon, ammonia crystals are different) nearly as often as they say so-- really you can use the same filter, provided it's rinsed correctly, until it's nearly falling apart or is blocking water flow.

 

[bausman480]

Remember that the food companies like to sell their product...

Yeah, lol, they do. xD Good point!

The test kit is really essential, as are PWCs.

How often should we do PWCs? Is once a month enough? I've seen sites that say twice a week, but that kind of seems like too often...
How often should the ammonia crystals be changed?

 

[Tommy Gun]

How often should we do PWCs? Is once a month enough? I've seen sites that say twice a week, but that kind of seems like too often...

In reality, no one can give you a completely accurate answer on this one because there are many variables which could make your aquarium a bit different than someone else's...or even the same as your second aquarium, if you have one. (if not, you may soon )

As I mentioned, many of us base our water change schedule based upon nitrAte readings because this is a relatively accurate way to factor in things such as the number, type and size of fish living in the water. Based upon my observations while participating on forums like this one, I'd probably say that if there is a common 'defalt' for advice on this, it would be changing 25% of the water every week. IMO this is pretty good advice, but it is very possible that you might need to do larger or more frequent changes...which is pretty hard to determine exactly without a test kit.

How often should the ammonia crystals be changed?

I've never used this sort of thing but I assume that would also depend on your unique situation. However, if your aquarium is cycled, you should not have to use any product to remove or control ammonia at all.

I'll note that filter sponges should ONLY be rinsed in tank water

I agree and if I may, would like to expand upon this by pointing out that you can and probably should be rinsing your filter media any time you notice that debris/detritus has been trapped in the filter. This build up in the filter can not only cause problems for the benificial bacteria on/in the filter media, hinder the flow of water through the filter, and/or continue to pollute the water as it decays.

 

[bausman480]

Thank you, Tommy Gun.

So everything goes back to me not having the testing kits...
And you can't really help me with determining the cause of the green water because I can't provide my water's characteristics, am I correct?
I'll see if I can get that master testing kit soon.

Also, for the 50% water changes that were recommended for the blackout, how long should the water stand? Cause I know you can't just put in tap water...
And where do you guys store ~300L of water for these kinds of things?

 

[Tommy Gun]

And you can't really help me with determining the cause of the green water because I can't provide my water's characteristics, am I correct?

For the most part, yes, the tests and the results would definitely lead to some more accurate and/or specific insight. On the other hand, I'm sure everyone can speculate and make some relatively educated guesses. That being said, my guess is that the problem was started and has been able to continue due to an over abundance of nutrients in the water because of your phosphate levels. In fact, I was sort of surprised to see those results because you have been doing water changes and if the phosphate isn't in your tap water, then those water changes should have reduced the phosphate.

While having test kits will be very valuable to you and your fish for a myriad of situations, I do think it is possible for you to solve the problem without a test kit if you understand how this type of algae operates. For example, the reason this problem is called an algae "bloom" is because the water is turned cloudy due to a population explosion. In order for this huge population increase to occur, there must be enough food and light to sustain each individual algae. Likewise, the population has to decrease when/if there is not enough food/light to sustain all of the algae. The good news, if any, is this huge population not only requires an abundance of food, it also consumes that food very rapidly so if you can remove the source of the food, you will gain control over the problem. This is where the test kits come in and that is probably why there hasn't been a whole lot of discussion on how to get back to having clear water yet. That being said though, if you want to proceed sans test results for now, I would suggest performing a series of small but very frequent water changes (perhaps even daily) but instead of removing and replacing water alone, I suggest that you also focus heavily on vacuuming or otherwise removing as much detritus as possible, to include vacuuming out anything that has become trapped within your substrate because this stuff is decaying slowly and as it does, it will become a good source of food for the algae. I should warn you though, it may take quite a while before you begin to see an improvement in clarity because this algae can reproduce very quickly...so even if the water is a bit more clear after each water change, don't be surprised if you return later to see that it is as bad as it was before the water change. If you don't give up on the water changes though, you will eventually gain the upper hand so be diligent and patient.

I apologize for beating this dead horse even more but even if you can clear up your water without test kits, they will still be extremely valuable as you move forward with efforts to avoid a reoccurance.

 

[CaptainAhab]

You don't need to store the water. Adjust your tap water to about the right temperature and add right from the tap (while adding dechlor). Although not the best way (IMO), many do water changes this way. I use RO/Di and store in 5 gallon water jugs

Back to the algae, algae is a living organism and as such needs to things to survive; light and food. We ask about the bulbs because old fluorescent and generic fluorescent bulbs sometimes give off light in a specific spectrum that algae thrive on (I'll post a link later). Secondly we ask about the test kits (specifically Nitrate and Phosphate) because this is the food part of the equation.

To dig into this problem those are the 2 tests that are most important, esp the nitrate one

I water change much less than I should but I tend to do larger changes, clean very well and over filter. Again, the key being I test on a regular basis and when the nitrates get up there..... PWC time.

BTW IMO.. Nitrates )above 40 ... Bad) (above 30 ... getting bad) (above 20 ... time for a change) (above 10 ... not bad) (below 10 ... very good).

Salt tanks strive for 0 (for which I struggle as well)