Guppy Separation? Expertise appreciated

[GuppyGuy333]

Hi everyone! I'm having a problem with guppy aggression. Despite having GuppyGuy as a moniker....I really don't know how to handle my current situation.

I have a 55 gallon community tank with 6 male guppies (2 endler's, 2 cobras, and 2 regular) and about 12 females (all regular). plus many fry of various ages.
There is also one male betta, 6 kuhli loaches, 2 mystery snails, 5 corydoras, one bristlenose pleco. plus a ramshorn infestation

Background: I'm currently suffering a surge in male guppy aggression. I originally set out in having the best possible set up for my guppies. I started out with 5 males and they were the only ones in the tank. they slowly started getting more aggressive as time went on and then I decided to add females because many people said this could help with aggression. As soon as I did this one of my males died (I don't know if this was a coincidence or if there was something going on with group dynamics) I only added about four female guppies at a time incrementally until I had about 16. When I added my betta he nipped one female's fins until I think she died from the injury (he has now become the nicest member in the tank). two have died from having problems with giving birth (at least i think that's why they died, no fin rips or any other obvious signs of trauma), and two others died after adding them to the tank within a couple of days. Granted after adding my females the males became less aggressive but i think this was due to them chasing after my females and less about making a pecking order. I added two male endler's about a month and a half ago because i started seeing the 4 original males become aggressive towards eachother (not towards the females though) and thought this might spread out the aggression. This seemed to work for the last couple of months until recently.

Now my males keep getting torn fins and so do my females in increasing numbers. This doesn't seem to slow any of them down but I do worry about if it will only be a matter of time before many of them die at once or the aggression will continue.
(i know this isn't from my betta, who was my chief suspect at the onset of all tail damage).
I have also observed that with this round of aggression that that almost all adult females are pregnant at this time....so I don't know if this is contributing to it. and that males are chasing after already pregnant females more than they did in the past. often ganging up on them for longer periods than they did previously.
Also I'm seeing at least one "teenager" guppy death every few days and I don't know if this is due to adult aggression.


I'm asking advice because I don't know if guppy aggression comes in natural waves like I have seen them doing because on looking back it has come in peaks every 2-3 months. LFS employees say that some guppies just have aggressive personalities and that you can't really do anything except get rid of them. I'm wondering if anyone else has had personal experience with this.

I currently have a 40 gallon breeder up and running and have even put some of the guppy fry/teenagers into it. I'm wondering if i should do a complete sex/gender separation of my guppies. That is what my instincts are telling me but i'm worried about the fallout of such a change in environment for all involved. Would this possibly heighten the aggression in the males? or and make them dangerous to other community tank members. Would any of yall recommend this or should I just ride the waves of aggression and see what happens?

 

[sudz]

Try some floating plants, more internal barriers/hiding spots. Horny buggers are probably trying to defend their space to impress the females. lol

Edit: I am no expert - Just my 2 cents.

 

[Cindy 64]

I've also read it's good to have 3 females per male. Not sure if this is correct. I had 3 males. 2 died from a blue gourami fin nipper. So I got a bunch of "feeder guppies". I now have 7 males, & 8 females. The females are being harrassed all the time. I know I need to get more females. Just waiting for the quarantine tank to finish cycling.

 

[flchamp89]

Even though you say the betta is fine. It creates stress if your trying to breed guppies. Guppies do have various attitudes which can change as the group changes. There is typically an ever changing pecking order. When attempting to breed there will be some aggression.

 

[Toad]

I've had a guppy colony going for years, but unless I've had all males in a small tank I've never seen the level of aggression you're describing, especially in such a large tank. I know some of my fancier guys have ripped their own fins just out of constant swimming and flashing the ladies, so some may have done that. Have you watched to see what happens after the lights go out? Some of my females have been nastier than the males too, so that may be an issue.

The other possibility is as more fry are born, your water levels can suffer, and that will knock off the weaker fry and can cause some fin splitting/rot. Also, some of the less pushy ones may not be getting enough to eat and will slowly starve in the tank unless you take care to make sure everyone is getting food. I try to do two smaller feedings a day, and slowly add the food a little bit at a time to make sure everyone gets enough. I've even had ones (always males) that needed to be taken out and fed by themselves till they build their strength up to compete.

I'd do as said before and add more cover, test your levels, increase feedings if necessary, and see if something isn't happening after the lights go out.

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[_Drago_]

All the above replies give very good advice! Males that are kept solely with other males, will become more aggressive as hormones begin to dictate their behavior and how they interact. About 90% of a male guppy's existence is spent thinking about females and breeding and thus aggression and frustration often occurs in one sex tanks. As someone stated above 3 females per male is the minimum and is crucial for both the sake of your males and females. The best thing I can recommend is to remove or rehome some males and instead add more females into your tank to help with dynamics. Just as others have said, adding plants, rocks, and driftwood will help so that your guppies can hide. Adding terra cotta pots turned on their sides will help provide shelter as well. Hope they settle down soon!

 

[GuppyGuy333]

here is a pic of my tank. i'd say it is probably medium planted. it has some rocks, driftwood, and some floating plants but they all have been there the entire time for all spikes of aggression besides the first one that had only males. I have seen a significant increase in fry survival but it doesn't really seem to have an effect on aggression of the adults. I didn't set out to breed guppies. it kind of became an accident when i was trying to tone down all of their aggression and increase their quality of life.

my water levels my water levels for the past few weeks have been reading a little too acidic. but i have been adding a buffer and it seems to kind of hover around 6.9-7.2 (i think this is due to the driftwood, despite having boiled each piece for more than four hours).
I light my tank usually from about 7:30AM until midnight. could the light being on so long be stressing them out?

could raising the fry in the same tank as adults be contributing? if the fry are going through their natural hormone development could it be sending the males into a frenzy? with only the current adult females being a suitable outlet

I'm sorry for pestering yall. I just feel like a bad fish keeper even though I'm trying to do right by them. Thanks for all the help so far

 

[Toad]

I would change the lighting schedule, I have mine come on around 10am to 2:30pm, a break till 4:30, and then on till 9pm. It gives them some 'down time'. I would still wtch to see what happens after the lights go out, just to see if any particular fish is causing issues.

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[Autumnsky]

You mentioned adding a buffer...what /why are you buffering? What is your pH KH/GH?

I didn't see the Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate?

The hormones from the females get them stirred up. All males can work, but sometimes there are mean fish. Though I am wondering if adding the buffer, or having high off tank water parameters might cause aggression. Having high Nitrates can cause that. Frenetic aggression, I have seen it my own tank, normally nice fish zipping around butting other fish and looking like they are attacking them.

Also poor water can cause frayed fins.

Are you using a liquid or strip test strip?
s.

 

[_Drago_]

The lights being on aren't likely to be causing the aggression, but them being off earlier can help with the aggression. I doubt the fry growing have anything to do with it as in fact, it's likely to make the aggression much lower due to the larger number of individuals in the colony. Your tank is very well planted and has lots of shelter so in all honesty, I wouldn't worry too much as your guppies have the option to hide if they feel threatened. Adding rocks and plant pots can help add even more shelter if you are willing to go out and get more. It might be worth it to rehome some of your males (if you can bear to part with them) and instead get more females to help bring the level of aggression down in the tank. Sometimes I find giving particularly aggressive males "jail time" will help to curve their behavior. This can be accomplished via separation. Since guppies are social, after a few days to a week of being alone, they'll sometimes begin to act more like team players. You are in no way a bad fish owner! You're a good and responsible one for coming online to try and help your fish in any way you can! Good luck

 

[nirbhao]

Those plastic boxes sold as breeders are actually great for time outs. Don't put the females in, just the bullies. Don't put to males in together. You can get the kind with divider if you need to.

I can't really get over having male guppies and a betta. It seems like your males might be trying to show off their toughness.

Also, regardless of the number of hiding places, males will find the females. I strongly recommend you either add more females or reduce males so that you have a ratio of 1:3.

 

[GuppyGuy333]

hey everyone thanks to you all for so much for the advice and for taking time out of your day to respond. it is much appreciated! I'm sending you all positive vibes (let me know if you need any guppies haha)

so here is my update. I have transferred about 20-30 fry and teenagers to my forty gallon breeder and also one adult female that after giving birth to her latest batch seems to be permanently bent (hopefully this is temporary...if anyone has any experience let me know).
I got 7 new female guppies (two on closer inspection might actually already be pregnant....sigh) and one additional male. I got the additional male because I have heard from multiple sources that you should keep males in odd numbers so with my two endlers and four regular ones bumps the number up to 7 males. (though there are a couple of teenagers in the tank i had trouble catching that i think are definitely males)
There are still plenty of fry and teenagers in the tank. pretty hard to tally

side note/question: when i separated my fry into the breeder I had a disproportionately high number of females. as in 20-30 fry/teenagers I could only see 2-3 with a brighter colors and/or a gonopodium. is that normal? what are the gender ratios of your fry?

I also got another couple bundles of anarchis and just have it floating in my tank.

for more specificity: the seemingly dominant male has tears in the tail that could just be rips that are caused by being too large or ripping on the driftwood.he has no bite marks at all despite being the most aggressive out of all of them. one of my endler's doesn't seem to have any tail tissue at all; the other is untouched. my outher males have rips, frayed edges, and even bite marks out of theirs. now many of my females don't have anything wrong with their fins (except for where they were nipped in the past and have since healed) but many of them have bite marks out of them too

Also I didn't think of it until just now, but is it possible that moving plants and decor around could be causing stress and/or aggression? because the last two spikes happened around the time I did some major re-scaping (I can't remember if the spikes happened immediately after or just around the same time).

 

[_Drago_]

Redecorating can cause stress which in turn can cause aggression, but I wouldn't think it'd be a major part of the aggressive behavior. It sounds like at this point you're doing all the right things and it might be time to just wait it out and see how things go. Some colonies of guppies are aggressive whilst others get along peacefully, in all honesty it might not be too much of an issue as long as your fish don't seem overly stressed. As long as your waters kept clean and you don't show your guppies, a few torn fins won't be much of an issue. As for your question on male/female ratio in fry, I notice it varies depending on each batch. Sometimes I have almost no females, sometimes all females, I'm not sure if there's an exact science to it, but it just depends. Keep going with things the way you are and keep us updated if things change!

 

[Autumnsky]

You mentioned adding a buffer...what /why are you buffering? What is your pH KH/GH?

I didn't see the Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate?

The hormones from the females get them stirred up. All males can work, but sometimes there are mean fish. Though I am wondering if adding the buffer, or having high off tank water parameters might cause aggression. Having high Nitrates can cause that. Frenetic aggression, I have seen it my own tank, normally nice fish zipping around butting other fish and looking like they are attacking them.

Also poor water can cause frayed fins.

Are you using a liquid or strip test strip?
s.

Same questions as in above...
Also ther seems to have been a similar thread to your issue but not really an answer, other than it does happen, though I seem to remember vitamin deficiency being discussed as an issue.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/female-guppy-spine-bent-after-giving-birth-348650.html

 

[nirbhao]

Pregnancy can permanently alter bodies.