Haven't posted in a while. Back with questions!

[JamesShall]

Hello all you fishy people!

I haven't been on here in a while as I've been messing with other projects around the house. The few fish I have are doing well, but I haven't added anything new for a couple months. I've wrapped up a few things and it's now time to get going again with the fish tank.

After talking to a lfs guy, he said he has been able to go 3 months without a water change. I stopped doing water changes every 2 weeks and decided to give it a try and let the water slide and just monitor it really well. It's going on 5 weeks now and all my readings haven't changed one bit! It's a 65/70 gallon tank with a Penguin 330 hob. Lucky maybe? The fish don't seem to mind it one bit. I was considering to change over to a canister, but I think that I will hold off for a while. I'm only testing nitrites, ammonia, and pH. Everything is super stable!

I did this "experiment" to see if my ph reading would change any. It has been higher than desired and I guess it will just stay that way.

Also, I wanted to see if the water color would worsen. It's been a yellowish color ever since I put in a large piece of driftwood. I thought the chemicals from the wood were just leaching out, but it's been a good 3 MONTHS and it's still the same thing. SInce I stopped with the water changes I haven't noticed anything change with the color. Very odd - I really expected it to get darker and darker, but it hasn't. The log of driftwood is pretty big. I would have figured that the pH would have lowered a little with it's addition, but it didn't.



So, I'm also in the market to finish decorating the tank. I found all the fake plants I plan to use on http://www.drsfostersmith.com. As long as I'm ordering from there (they have MUCH better prices than the lfs around here), I'm going to get some more carbon media to see if it might clear up the water. The HOB I have contains 2 media baskets as well as 2 cartridges and 2 biowheels. I might put carbon in both or maybe carbon in one and something else. Maybe put some ammonia nuetralizing crystals in the other?!?!?!?

I remember reading about some "polishers" that people on here are using. Maybe I can use one of those to clean up my water? I used the search function, but I can't seem to find any of those old posts. I think they are some sort of micro filter that catches very small things floating about in the water including algae. How much does a decent "polisher" cost and are there any recommended brands/models from the selection that http://www.drsfostersmith.com offers?

Currently, I do not have any lights on the tank. I would like to get something up on there bacause I just painted the back of the tank black yesterday and now it's a lot darker than I expected it to be. What kind of bulb do I look for? I don't have live plants. The tank is about 3 feet tall, 3 feet wide, and a foot and a half deep (deep = from front to back NOT top to bottom). What wattage and number of bulbs are recommended?


One more thing - yeah,... I know it's a LONG post! (sorry) - when I started the tank I had been told to test the water and watch for the cycle and all that. Somebody here mentioned that good water often smells like fresshly turned soil while "prolem" water is more of a sweet smell. As soon as the cycle finished in my tank, the water undeniably had that fresh soil smell. That lasted about 4 days and has never returned. Any reason why? The water smells sweet now (and has for months)... very much unlike soil. Is that something to worry about?

 

[TankGirl]

Welcome back to AA! Glad for the update.

I am personally opposed to not doing water changes. IME, the more, the better. As a friend of mine is wont to say, "fish like water best" and fresh water does wonders on a regular basis. Much lower incidence of disease and poor health. I think it is possible not to do it - but there is a science to the "balanced aquarium" involving fish and plants that I don't think is what you are talking about here. I just have learned over the years that a host of problems can be avoided by a regular water change schedule, and some of my tanks get them twice a week. Ok - that's all I'll say on it. you can go ahead and see what happens over time, it will certainly be interesting to learn the results.

I think you are talking about a diatom filter, but again (I guess I lied when I said I was done... ) you might not even need one if you did frequent partial water changes.

If the tank is cycled there is no need to use ammonia removing crystals - the ammonia is the food for the bacteria that is necessary to keep the tank stable, so you don't want to remove it, except by doing water changes during the cycle to lower the ammonia levels until the cycle is complete. You can put anything you want in those baskets - even just more floss or some ceramic noodles for bacteria to grow on.

Some of the driftwood I have used leached tannins into the water endlessly, and the kind I have now does not. Some fish like it, so it depends on how you feel about it - I think removing the driftwood is going to be your best bet if you don't like the look. It may tend to lower the pH in your water over time, so that is a consideration.

Don't know about the smell - probably would be fixed by water changes..

Your post will likely prompt a very enjoyable discussion on all of the options you have at this point, and I am as aware as anyone that there is not a set of hard rules about this hobby - everyone tends to use methods that work for them that might not work for the other guy.

Have fun and good luck

 

[QTOFFER]

After talking to a lfs guy, he said he has been able to go 3 months without a water change. I stopped doing water changes every 2 weeks and decided to give it a try and let the water slide and just monitor it really well. It's going on 5 weeks now and all my readings haven't changed one bit! It's a 65/70 gallon tank with a Penguin 330 hob. Lucky maybe? The fish don't seem to mind it one bit. I was considering to change over to a canister, but I think that I will hold off for a while. I'm only testing nitrites, ammonia, and pH. Everything is super stable!

I've seen this topic discussed on this and a few other boards. Here's what's probably going to happen...
You're going to get more than a few people post that the lfs guy is dead wrong and that you're out of your mind for following his advice. Then you'll see a few posts from people who haven't changed their water in months. There will be a long, sometimes heated debate and in the end, everyone will agree that the key variable that was never brought up is bioload.

I forget how many or what kind of fish you have, but 65/70 gal is a pretty large tank and I'm not too surprised the water params have remained stable for 5 weeks. The one important parameter you haven't tested for is nitrATE. I would expect this to be elevated. Of course, fish can develop a degree of tolerance for high nitrates if the levels rise slowly.

Can one go three months without a water change? In a large tank with a light bioload, I can't see why not. In a goldfish or cichlid tank, probably not. In eithger case, I wouldn't be willing to risk it - but that's just me. Besides, I do lots of other things while I change the water like scrape algae, rearrange decorations, and clean the fake plants.

 

[millipede]

you know, I really appreciate it when people take time to read, think, and try to understand something and calmly respond... Those were some nice responses... Some people would be quick to jump all over it and say how wrong it is...
I think most people, including myself, that go long periods of time without changing water it is mostly because of lazyness... some of you would not believe me if I told you the last time I changed my water, and the rest would probably yell at me... once I move I'm handing the tank over to my wife and letting it be her responsibility but she also gets to decide everything that goes in the tank... She's excited about that. My 15 gal has 2 otos and a few too many guppies, 2 ramshorn snails, a few too many pest snails, several plants, driftwood and a few coconut shells. Things seem to be working very well and I have't had any illness or death in a long time. But after the move I plan on getting rid of most, if not all, of the guppies, adding some khulis and ... well, I did say it will be my wife's tank so I'll have to take her to the fish store and to some looking around. My main focus will be my 55 terrarium type setup... I'm excited about that. But I agree with what's been said already... It can be done... I think for me luck has helped a lot... Things could either work out perfectly or go horribly wrong... And I also agree about the type of fish being important too... Some fish handle subtle changes well and can be quite hardy.. but a lot of fish are picky about some things and wont handle the changes well. I believe some driftwood and some live plants are essential to a healthy tank, at least in such conditions.., at any rate, good luck...

 

[deli_conker]

I agree with qtoffer

I might put carbon in both or maybe carbon in one and something else. Maybe put some ammonia nuetralizing crystals in the other?!?!?!?

The carbon will pull the tannins out of the water and clear it up. But it will also be a never ending process. Even without driftwood, the water will discolor a little. I don't use carbon unless I medicate (to pull the medicine out of the water when I'm done medicating).

The ammonia neutralizing crystals are a no-no in my book. If your tank is cycled then the crystals will kill your cycle. Think about it...

1) fish waste and uneaten food decompose and release ammonia
2) bacteria eat ammonia and release nitrIte
3) bacteria eat nitrIte and release nitrAte
4) water change keeps nitrAte levels under control

If you put in something that eats the ammonia, then the bacteria that naturally remove it from the water will starve to death. This breaks the chain and all the bacteria depending on the ammonia eaters die also. Your tank is now un-cycled. You will either have to put your fish through another cycle (harsh) or keep using the ammonia neutralizing crystals (they need to be replaced on a consistent basis).

There are different types of water polishers. Or at least different claims...
TankGirl mentioned a diatom filter. That would be your best bet. Maybe run it for a few hours once a week. It will make your water crystal clear.

I don't trust any other method. With a diatom filter, the stuff causing discoloration is left in the filter and out of the tank. With a water change, some of the stuff causing discoloration is pulled out with the water and replaced with clear water. Anything that requires you to "just add a few drops and your tank will be clear" sounds hokey to me. Sure it may work, but the stuff causing the discoloration is still in the tank. I can't see how that could be healthy for the fish.

The tank is about 3 feet tall, 3 feet wide, and a foot and a half deep (deep = from front to back NOT top to bottom).

3x3x1.5 ends up being around 100 gal. What all do you have in there? I have an african cichlid tank, so I change the water (15-20%) every 7-10 days. I go ahead and do water changes on the other tanks around the same time. It's no extra work because I'm already changing water elsewhere.

 

[Menagerie]

About the water changes~the parameters will stay stable for a long while, but the important part is realizing your fish did not evolve to live in "standing" water. Where ever the fish evloved, there was always water-change-overs occurring~whether it be evaporation and rain, lake to stream, ocean currents.

 

[pkremer]

I was going to address your question of the "sweet" smelling water. I would have thought that might have meant your water was more acidic than neutral, but you mentioned your pH is higher than you wanted, so I am not sure. If your fish aren't showing any ill effects, it probably is nothing too serious.

I think it is certainly possible to go a long time in between water changes depending on how many fish are in that tank, however, if you are not testing for nitrates, how can you know for sure?

I have to be honest and say that I feel that your LFS representative sounds like he is carrying out an experiment. He 'has been able' to go 3 months with no water change. In my opinion, this is like, "I have been able to go an inch below the E on my gas tank!" and "I have been able to go 10,000 miles without an oil change!"

I think that it is important to think about the health of the fish. For instance, a baby can 'tolerate' cigarette smoke in its environment, but does that mean that it is OK or that I would be totally unconcerned about exposing a baby to it? Of course not! The less cigarette smoke in the baby's environment, the better as far as I am concerned.

It's the same for fish. Fish can 'tolerate' a certain level of ammonia, nitrite, and an even higher amount of nitrates. But does this mean that it is OK to allow nitrates to build up to levels much higher than is healthy for them just because they will adapt to it? Just as you wouldn't force your child to breathe in old and polluted air, I would do minimum a water change every two weeks, just to keep that water as fresh and healthy as possible.

A water change in my 38 gal takes no more than 20 minutes, and I can't imagine even in your larger tank that it would take more than an hour. One hour every 2 weeks isn't exactly a high-maintenance hobby, and your fish will probably be much happier.

Paul

 

[TankGirl]

Very nice thread - a lot of gems here! Kudos to you, JamesSchall

 

[QTOFFER]

I agree - a great thread! It kinda reminds me of what I do at work: that is, push a complex system to its limits (even sometimes until it breaks down ) in order to determine the optimal normal operating parameters.

JamesShall, if you continue this 'experiment' you would do us all a great service by providing regular updates. Also, if you could, provide some info about the tank's inhabitants and try to test the nitrates.

About the water changes~the parameters will stay stable for a long while, but the important part is realizing your fish did not evolve to live in "standing" water. Where ever the fish evloved, there was always water-change-overs occurring~whether it be evaporation and rain, lake to stream, ocean currents.

This reminds me of another water parameter that would be affected by infrequent water changes: hardness.
I think the hardness would noticeably rise in a tank that didn't see a water change for a few months because water would evaporate, leaving behind dissolved minerals. How much it would rise is anyone's guess and I'm not sure what effect, if any, it would have on the fish.

Another group of contaminants that are removed during regular water changes are dissolved organic compounds (DOCs). I know that high levels of these can affect both the pH and ammonia toxicity, but are they by themselves toxic to fish?? Will the presence of aquatic plants keep their levels down?