Help with old otocinclus sucking on barb!

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7Enigma

Aquarium Advice Addict
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
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Havertown, PA
Hello everyone,

I've been dealing with a problem with the oto for a while now but it's started to get much worse in the last week and I'm about ready to suck the bugger out.

My beautiful gold barb has been getting sucked after lights out occasionally. I would attribute it to the oto not being fed enough, but now I'm sure that is not the case. There is adequate algae and diatoms visible in the tank. I feed algae wafers every night for the BN pleco and oto. Up to this point I would know if I forgot an algae wafer because occasionally (say one out of 5 times) the next day the barb would have a mark (it would look like a red rash on the side of the body). Now even with the feeding he's ignored his normal food source and have gone for the slime layer.

I'm very worried the barb will develop an infection because the wound is now definitely deeper into the tissue.

I've heard of this happening with Chinese algae eaters when they get older, but this is definitely a true otocinclus catfish which I've had since the tank was started several years ago. Is it possible my oto has developed a taste for the slime layer instead of its most prized food (diatoms)? I tried to sneak up on the oto with the net today to hopefully transplant him with my dwarf puffer at work (a fish which would NOT put up with the harassment), but I just don't know how I can catch this guy without seriously wounding him (well planted tank).

I'm honestly thinking of trying to suck him up with my siphon and either euthanizing him with clove oil if he makes it through the tubing without harm, or quickly bashing him if he gets stuck part way in the tubing (more humane than trying to get him out to then kill him). I really dislike destroying animals even when they turn on each other, but I cannot risk keeping him with the barb any longer.

Before anyone asks, I do not think the marks could be from the BN pleco (or any other tank mate) because the BN is MUCH larger and has a much larger mouth. My guess is the oto is small enough to attach when the barb is resting and do its thing.

I don't have a QT tank anymore (my QT tank is now my puffer tank at work) and so moving the barb or oto for a bit is not an option. Also the barb is large enough that my small breeder tank I used with wounded tiger barbs is too small and would probably just stress the barb out more than anything. I'm going to give it one more night to await some responses and try to overfeed the tank to tempt the oto with something else, but as mentioned there is adequate algae/diatoms/algae wafers supplied.

:(
 
I've never heard of this problem happen with an oto before. Are you certain that it is the Oto? Have you actually witnessed it happening?

I'd suspect some other problem with the barb. There are diseases that could fit the same description and if untreated would slowly get worse.
 
I've never heard of this problem happen with an oto before. Are you certain that it is the Oto? Have you actually witnessed it happening?

I'd suspect some other problem with the barb. There are diseases that could fit the same description and if untreated would slowly get worse.


Here's a couple things that have taken me to the conclusion its the oto (and no I've never actually seen it, however, I have seen the oto become much more friendly around the other fish (previously for a couple months I couldn't even FIND the oto in the dense foliage) where it almost looked like he was going to latch onto some of them, the other fish immediately darted off, almost like they knew what was about to happen).

1. My tank was always pretty pristine algae-wise with the BN pleco and oto. No visible diatoms anywhere they could get to, and very little other algae. Now the tank has visible diatoms.

2. This oto was always CRAZY fat. The healthy fat where you could tell the oto was scarfing down any algae/diatoms/algae wafers. Now the oto is skinny (not sickly, just not plump).

3. The wound on the barb was not always in the same place. Sometimes it was closer to the tailfin, sometimes it was on the other side of the body. Just recently though, it seems the oto found the best place to suck which is on the right side of the barb right behind the gills. Because of this, what was previously superficial is now becoming a real wound because the same spot is being attacked.

4. Sometimes the wound looked like a very light scrape (similar to a rug burn). It would heal in a day or two and I was not very concerned. Recently though (just the last week) the damage is to the same spot and definitely below the slime coat layer (we are now well into the dermis of the fish). It looks REALLY painful, and I'm afraid other than infection, that my tiger barbs may pick at it if they sense weakness.

5. None of the other fish show any signs of this, everyone looks healthy (even the gold barb is still very nice, plump, and active).

So I guess it's euthanize time. :( My LFS probably wouldn't care at all and certainly wouldn't do anything other than possibly replace the oto (not worth my time to drive there). They'd likely just flush it. At least my way will be more humane, but I have to get the guy out today.

Before leaving for work this morning I put a flashlight up to the glass and the wound didn't look any worse, but I'm only guessing it happens at night. My lights don't come on until 2pm and so it's very possible this happens during the morning/early afternoon before the tank lights come on.

Thanks everyone for the replies. If I manage to catch the oto without him getting stuck in the tubing (and smashed) I'll be sure to take a macro shot (after the clove oil) of him to see if by some crazy thing I don't actually have an oto.
 
So I tried unsuccessfully to catch the oto yesterday. When I got home from work I was pleased to see the wound did not look worse, but it still looks pretty bad. I've decided to just tear apart the tank if need be today to get the oto out. He really is lightning quick.
 
So it's been a couple days and worth an update. I ended up being able to catch the oto, who is now in my dwarf puffer tank at work. So far the aggressiveness of the DP seems to have kept the oto at bay but we shall see. First sign of the oto attacking the DP and he's getting euthanized.

But on to the main reason for the post, the gold barb. I had a HORRIFIC experience when trying to take care of the barb. I caught the oto on the 31st (day after my last post) and thought all was well, but the wound was still really bad. It was now the 1st and I it was time for my weekly 50% water change. I especially wanted to keep the water clean during this trying time for the barb and so happily got this water change underway (normally I now dread the water change as it's just one more thing to do around the house).

My tank is a 20 gallon and so I have a 5 gallon bucket. Math geniuses will realize I then have to dump 2 buckets full and then refill with 2 buckets. I always fill my first 5 gallon bucket before doing the water removal so I can quickly get water back in and avoid shock and possible aggression due to the lower water level. With my new water sitting besides the tank I start my siphoning. After the first 5 gallons most of the fish have corralled themselves on the opposite side of the tank. I start sucking the second 5 gallons and notice some action with the fish. To my utter horror I see one of the tiger barbs nipping directly IN THE WOUND. The gold barb darts off but is chased by the tiger. I now start draining as fast as possible completely ignoring trying to gravel vac. The gold barb gets back to the SAME spot and now both tiger barbs are like piranhas just goring this wound. I rarely get emotional but I swear I was almost sick to my stomach, screaming (yes screaming) at the tank hoping my voice would scare them off. I finish my drain and immediately dump the 5 gallons of clean water in at record pace.

I now frantically try to catch the gold barb while he/she is evading the tigers. I've never seen fish bleed before but when the barb would stop you could see it falling through the water and slowly disappearing. I'm literally freaking out as I chase the barb around the tank with net, hand, and breeder tank, praying somehow I manage to catch him without him dying from shock.

I eventually catch him in the breeder holder and immediately put him in the empty bucket next to the tank. I grab 3 glassfuls of tank water to submerge the barb and prevent further damage. I grab a towel and cover the bucket.

I'm now in near shock from the last 10 minutes. I have to act fast. I thought of euthanizing the poor barb but really wanted to save the little guy/gal. Fortunately my wife is home and I tell her, "I need you to go to the basement and find me a clean rubbermaid container". I said the smaller the better knowing most of ours are the huge size. Turns out we had a 20 gallon one which is the same size as my main tank. I ask her to wash it off while I'm gone with tap water and shoot off to the local Petsmart (about 10 min away). Before leaving for Petsmart I go to their website and print out the Stealth heater I'll need as well as Melafix and Pimafix. I figure this little bugger needs all the medication it can get to help heal the wound and I've read on here many people use it for just this reason. Go figure I end up saving 50% by price-matching Petsmart's own website.

I run in the store and grab the heater, Pimafix, and Melafix. I dash back home and start filling the 20 gallon container in my basement with tank-temp tap water. I dose the water with Prime, wash off and chuck the heater in (it was set at 78F, my tank is about 80F and who knows how accurate the dial is). I clean my old whisper filter that was sitting in the closet gathering dust with tap water and hang it off the rubbermaid container.

I now scale the stairs yet again and grab the foam insert (I have 2 in my AquaClear filter) from my main tank, and run back to the basement with scissors. I cut a slit in the side of the filter longways and jam it onto the intake of the whisper (don't have any spare filters and frankly whisper are crap, not to mention I don't want any carbon as per the Pim/Melafix directions). I've created a ghetto sponge filter that should easily cope with the single lone barb in the 20 gallon "tank".

I now read the directions and add 10ml of each medication (after heavily shaking) and dump them in the container. I mix it well and it smells like an aromatherapy store in my basement (very nice tea/spice smell).

It's now time for the barb. I go back upstairs and pick up the bucket gently and slowly make my way to the basement. I haven't looked at him since I left for fear of stressing him out more. I get to the basement and slowly add 3 cupfuls of new medicated water to the bucket and drop him in (I made sure the water temp was approximately the same as the main tank). I would have liked to give him more time to acclimate but basically was scared of him dying of shock if I did too much interaction.

I gently put the rubbermaid top loosely over the "tank" so he couldn't jump out and water doesn't evaporate too quickly. I turn off the light and close the door and go back to my main tank to finish the water change.

Now it's been 3 days and the barb looks fantastic. The wound (from what I can see without disturbing him much) seems to be almost healed though I'm sure it will take another week at least to get the scales/slime coat back. Unfortunately he doesn't seem to want to eat, but I'm trying twice a day with small amounts of different food. I think the smell of the medication is throwing off his sense of smell and so he doesn't realize the food he used to scarf down is being given to him. But bottom line is he appears to be well on the road to recovery.

I wish I would have had time to snap a pic of just how bad this wound was, but obviously that was not practical.

Sorry for the long post but I wanted to update this thread for anyone else that's had or will have a similar experience in the future.
 
I am so sorry for your stressful water change. You did great though. I'm glad he is doing so much better.
 
I've been following this thread, and I'm glad to hear that things are going better with the barb. Sorry you had to go through all that stress though!

And glad your oto has been aquitted of all charges. :)
 
Based on this update, I'd say it's fairly clear that it was probably the Tiger Barbs all along that were the culprits for the wounds. I'm glad that you were able to witness the attack and act quickly to rescue the Gold Barb. Wonderful to hear that it is healing and has a good chance of making a recovery.
 
Next question - once the gold barb heals, where will you put him? If you put him back in with the Tiger barbs, I would imagine they will just start in on him again. Do you have a plan for a new home for the gold barb once he's out of the hospital?
 
Marchmaxima,

Still unsure of who the original cuplrit was. While the tigers have been problematic with nipping fins in the past I've never seen them go after the body of any fish. It could have just been a target of opportunity since they saw the wound and thought it was the frozen fish/shrimp I feed nightly. The other reason is that I never saw them go after the wound at any time prior to this water change. With the ferocity they displayed I cannot believe they wouldn't have literally killed the gold barb in an hour or so of attacking. My money is still on the oto, but he is not bothering my puffer yet.

Purrbox,

See my response to Marchmaxima. My only concern now is that the gold barb does not appear to be eating, but fortunately he was always a piggie and so has !ample! fat stores to hopefully ride out this hospital period. And I just looked over and see the oto is munching on an algae wafer I put in the tank (even though there is a lot of algae in the puffer tank).

CatatonicBug,

Right now that's a very good question. If I am to believe it was the oto then it's an easy decision. If I begin to question the tigers then I have a difficult decision. I really don't have room for another tank and the hospital is really only a temporary home. I would probably take the fish to Petsmart or something, but that's the equivalent of euthanizing them myself basically. So the short answer is I don't know...
 
Since the Gold Barb is healing noticably, I think the changes are very good that it will make a full recovery. Once it's feeling better you should be able to convince it to eat again. I'd make sure that it's completely better before putting it back in the main aquarium, to help avoid the Tiger Barbs going after it again. Rearranging the decor should help the Gold Barb return with less risk.

Reguardless of who the original agressor was (we all have our own suspects) it's important to keep in mind that the Tiger Barbs have shown that they will go after an injured fish. If you keep them, you'll want to make sure to remove any sick or injured fish immediately for treatment to prevent additional injury.

As far as the Oto not eating the algae in the Puffer Aquarium, but instead preferring the algae wafers this really isn't surprising. Most algae eater seem to prefer the prepared food to algae in the Aquarium if given the chance. The other factor is that the algae in the aquarium may not be algae that the Oto would eat if not given a chance. Otos generally only eat soft algaes like diatoms, so if the algae is a harder variety the Oto may not be able to rasp it off.

This is of course the problem with using fish and/or shrimp for algae clean up, each variety only eats certain algae so you would need several different algae eaters to be able to handle all the possible algae that might show up.
 
Well Purrbox you called it. It has been several weeks since removing the gold barb and today was the day he was reintroduced to the tank (well last night actually).

I waited until lights out (10pm) and after acclimating him put him back into the tank. He was virtually perfectly healed, though the area never got the gold colored scales back (I assume similar to human scar tissue it never grows back quite the same way?). As of this morning everything was great....but then...

I saw the barbs back to their old ways. I had just fed them a light feeding of flake food, and I had deja vu. I saw 2 nips and made the difficult decision, they were both goners. I have lived with these 2 for over 2 1/2 years and in that time it has always been the tiger barbs that were causing problems. I went back to my first posts after stocking and they were the reason for 2 of my 3 cory catfish from being nipped to death, at least one of the oto's, and probably others.

So I spent 25 minutes fishing them out and put the down (clove oil and then vodka). One had been showing possible signs of IP's, but the other was just the alpha male of the tank that was always nipping. I do not feel good about it, but I had always said if it came down to a tough decision the tigers would be dealt with first.

Fortunately the gold barb was rescued in time, while there does appear to be some damage to the SAME EXACT @#$% SPOT, there is no blood, nor attacks from other members in the tank.

I had not posted but I lost my dwarf guarami suddenly about 2 weeks ago. Looked great one day, the next he was lying on a stargrass leaf, showing possible signs of IP's. Within the day he was dead (I had removed him to a 5 gallon bucket with melafix/pimafix, but it was too late). I was shocked at how quickly he went from being fine to his death.

So basically my tank is a shadow of what it used to be. I originally was stocked to the max, but after 2 1/2 years I've accumulated losses slowly and now I'm left with 2 checkered barbs (small guys no more than 1" long and relatively docile except to each other), 1 BN pleco, 1 cory catfish, and a ton of MTS. Sad really.

I had decided to let the tank stay without adding additional fish until these all passed, but now with the main aggressors gone I'm thinking when I get back from vacation (next 2 weeks) I may begin to stock the tank with guaranteed docile members. I'm thinking a nice group of cories to keep the solo one company as I've never heard of them becoming aggressive.

I just don't have the heart or patience anymore for semi-aggressive fish.

On a much happier note, my wife informed me that someone from her mom's club is giving away a 55 gallon tank with built in wooden stand! I had been watching Craig's list on an off for a while and my wife yard sales every weekend, but we just never were able to find one. I don't really have the room for a 55 since my office is small and the floor is questionable since it's on the second floor, but I couldn't pass up FREE. Who knows, maybe in a year or so I'll tear down the existing tank and finally be able to get some of the nicer large fish (clown loaches/etc.)
 
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And so the story gets worse. I wake up this morning to find another bad looking wound on the gold barb. Same spot, but much deeper, approaching the level when I first removed him. When I get home I'll have to setup the hospital again, but this looks VERY similar to the previous wound (prior to the barbs actually eating the gold barb). Now my thoughts are on the BN pleco that I've had for about a year. I feed algae wafers, the tank has visible algae in it, and the BN pleco looks nice and chubby.

Is it possible the pleco was the original culprit? The only other tank mates are the 2 checkered barbs (and I've seen them and they do not go near the gold barb, nor does the wound look to be caused by small pecks), a cory, and a hoarde of MTS. I'm assuming the cory is harmless, and I just can't see the barb sitting still while snails eat a hole through him (he also tends to sleep mid-tank, away from the walls). So all I've got left is the BN pleco.

I would like to mention that for the past year or so I feed a combination of store bought and home made food. The food I make has many ingredients, but it does have white fish and salmon in it. Would this somehow give the inhabitants a preferential taste for each other?

:(
 
The gold barb has again been removed and placed in the hospital tank. Hopefully she can make a full recovery again but I have no clue what to do with her if she does. My tank at work has a dwarf puffer, and my main tank cleary has an issue.
 
This is a strange case, for sure...you've seen the tiger barbs being very aggressive toward injured fish. If they were not the original culprit that caused the injuries, they sure jumped in there to harass the injured fish. Could the BN pleco have been the original culprit? Seems likely now, since there are no other possibilities in the tank. I have never had a BN pleco, only a pitbull pleco, and he was not the least bit aggressive.

I don't know either if the food that you give them somehow enhances their appetitie for one another. I could see how you could think of that possibility, though. Most flake foods have some amount of fish ingredients, but that's not the same as a fresh mixture you make yourself.

Could the BN pleco be re-located to the puffer tank? The compatibility chart at Live Aquaria says plecos and brackish fish can be housed together with caution. It depends on how brackish the puffer tank is also - I'm not sure since I never had one and never did the research - but are dwarf puffers fully freshwater?

Otherwise, a large breeder-type box for the gold barb?
Fish & Aquarium Supplies: Isolation Units/Dividers for Breeding, Quarantine, and Betas
 
This is a strange case, for sure...you've seen the tiger barbs being very aggressive toward injured fish. If they were not the original culprit that caused the injuries, they sure jumped in there to harass the injured fish. Could the BN pleco have been the original culprit? Seems likely now, since there are no other possibilities in the tank. I have never had a BN pleco, only a pitbull pleco, and he was not the least bit aggressive.

I don't know either if the food that you give them somehow enhances their appetitie for one another. I could see how you could think of that possibility, though. Most flake foods have some amount of fish ingredients, but that's not the same as a fresh mixture you make yourself.

Could the BN pleco be re-located to the puffer tank? The compatibility chart at Live Aquaria says plecos and brackish fish can be housed together with caution. It depends on how brackish the puffer tank is also - I'm not sure since I never had one and never did the research - but are dwarf puffers fully freshwater?

I now believe the original culprit was in fact the BN pleco. The whole reason I first removed the oto and accused it of the crime was because of the rasp-like abrasions on the gold barb prior to the gaping hole that was likely caused by the tigers. It definitely didn't look like the typical pecking you see from fish.

The BN pleco has always been completely docile, always hidden next to a piece of driftwood or the heater.

I think relocation to the puffer tank is my only real option now. My only concern is for the pleco! The oto is small enough and we know the microscopic spikes it has which prevents it from being attacked by the puffer, but I just don't know how the pleco would do.

Fortunately dwarf puffers are STRICTLY fresh water, no marine or brackish. Makes them the perfect office tank companion (I have my puffer in a 10 gallon next to my computer in my cubicle), since they stay very small and so a 10 gallon is HUGE to them.

Either way I've got a good 2-3 weeks before the gold barb would be even close to healed (I'm assuming the healing will take longer this time since it's already been damaged), so I have a while to watch and monitor the pleco.

Thanks for the reply.
 
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