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No idea if there's a way to calculate waste, but its generally known that pleco's, mollies and platies have larger bioloads than most other fish... They poop a lot. If you keep them, it won't take you long to see they poop a lot; very rarely do I look in my tank and not see my platy pooping lol. When it comes to what size tank a fish needs, it's activity level is also taken into consideration. Take a Molly for example; mollies are active fish and need swimming room. Putting a Molly in a 10g would be like keeping a dog, like a German Shepard for example, that needs room to run around in a pen 24//7. Simple research will tell you if a fish is a more active fish or not.

Hehe, they are funny how it dangles behind them.
Ok, imagine a rating system that incorporated how active, how much they eat ,how heavy their waste was (and therefore how slow it would degrade) and all those things according to their adult size. Mixed it with what level of different toxins they can tolerate and came to a basic letter color and number rating eg redA1 indicating highly active heavy poopers that grew quite big and were very sensitive to nitrates say 5ppm threshold . And then had tanks plants and filters show how they affect the tanks environment to achieve suitable conditions.
That'd be an awesome book.

Is there already a book like that?
 
Hehe, they are funny how it dangles behind them.
Ok, imagine a rating system that incorporated how active, how much they eat ,how heavy their waste was (and therefore how slow it would degrade) and all those things according to their adult size. Mixed it with what level of different toxins they can tolerate and came to a basic letter color and number rating eg redA1 indicating highly active heavy poopers that grew quite big and were very sensitive to nitrates say 5ppm threshold . And then had tanks plants and filters show how they affect the tanks environment to achieve suitable conditions.
That'd be an awesome book.

Is there already a book like that?

Sadly I think developing such a thing would cost too much money.
 
Is there a way to calculate a fish's bioload? Like how much ammonia a fish expels. I understand its a combination of faeces and ammonia expelled from scales and gills.
That would be very handy in calculating tank requirements. Rather than just a specific size of container we should have a rating system for how well our combination of filters and plants combined with the size if the tank can handle waste (all stages)
And then have a matching system for each breed of fish based on sensitivity and Waste production...
That's what those guys who do this for a living should be working on.

If you want to get scientific and have thousands of dollars to spend on lab equipment, you can precisely calculate a specific fish's ammonia output at a precise moment. Just realize this measurement is not static. A fish's ammonia ouput will vary from hour to hour, week to week and year to year. There is not a 'set' number for a specific fish. A one inch goldfish or oscar will have a vastly greater ammonia expenditure in twelve months when its six+ inches long. Ammonia output does not take hormonal considerations into account either. Thats another discussion in itself.

Comparisons can not be made between a lfs and a hobbiest's tanks. Lfs run huge central filtration systems. They also purchase and stock their tanks based on the notion that the fish are intended to be sold in a very short interim. Keep in mind, most of us do not run huge central filtration systems. Generally, most of us purchase fish for life not for a few weeks or months. This vital fact needs to be taken into consideration when purchasing fish as we want our fish to thrive, not to merely survive as they do in a lfs.
 
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Sadly I think developing such a thing would cost too much money.

Could start here.
If a fish dies from bad conditions,do we have a thread for people to post what the conditions were, and I'm pretty sure there is heaps of scientific data like I was reading before here http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/water/79-is-nitrate-toxic-a-study-of-nitrate-toxicity.html
They pushed a lot if fish to their limits and got some interesting info. It explains acute high level toxin results for nitrate, though that's not the same as long term.
It'd make a nice wiki page. But I'm just starting my first ever fish tank so I don't think I'm the guy for the job.
 
Could start here.
If a fish dies from bad conditions,do we have a thread for people to post what the conditions were, and I'm pretty sure there is heaps of scientific data like I was reading before here http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/water/79-is-nitrate-toxic-a-study-of-nitrate-toxicity.html
They pushed a lot if fish to their limits and got some interesting info. It explains acute high level toxin results for nitrate, though that's not the same as long term.
It'd make a nice wiki page. But I'm just starting my first ever fish tank so I don't think I'm the guy for the job.

A thread would be iseful but there may be too many variables for example power went out there were high ammonia levels and low temps. Which caused the death? Also there are many fish who are genetically modified it would be a good guideline but I wouldn't want to test my fish's limits
 
Ok then,

Well, I think if we need to convince someone their tank isn't big enough. We probably should explain why,
First of all by explaining whether its because the fish in question need more room to explore or because the fish have a large bioload.

See, to a beginner its a little bit like hearing green peace talk about battery hens and poultry farms, yet, who doesn't like A bit if KFC every now and again?
That's what it's like. It's like your saying "Oh that poor fish won't have any room to move"
And in turn making it seem like a larger tank is only for the luxury of a fish.
If a larger tank is required for a fish because of how heavily they muck up the water. Specify that as the reason and use examples like a reference to the amount of poop the fish do.


For example.
Cobalt rams. Everywhere I see people say "You couldn't even keep a single one in anything less than 10 gallons" then go on to state they personally wouldn't go under 20...
A single fish?
20 gallons is pretty big for one fish that isn't going to get bigger than 2 inches..
Where's the thinking there?
 
Ok then,

Well, I think if we need to convince someone their tank isn't big enough. We probably should explain why,
First of all by explaining whether its because the fish in question need more room to explore or because the fish have a large bioload.

See, to a beginner its a little bit like hearing green peace talk about battery hens and poultry farms, yet, who doesn't like A bit if KFC every now and again?
That's what it's like. It's like your saying "Oh that poor fish won't have any room to move"
And in turn making it seem like a larger tank is only for the luxury of a fish.
If a larger tank is required for a fish because of how heavily they muck up the water. Specify that as the reason and use examples like a reference to the amount of poop the fish do.

For example.
Cobalt rams. Everywhere I see people say "You couldn't even keep a single one in anything less than 10 gallons" then go on to state they personally wouldn't go under 20...
A single fish?
20 gallons is pretty big for one fish that isn't going to get bigger than 2 inches..
Where's the thinking there?

The thinking there is that thy are sensitive and that the toxins will build up a lot quicker in a ten gallon than a 20. There is 100% more water volume to pollute it is a rather latge difference. It could be the difference between .25 and .5 ppm of ammonia. That could kill a fish if left unattended for even a short period of time.
 
I know a lot of my frustration with the website is the lack of research people put into their "advice". Don't tell a person there's only 3 species of livebearers, or all cichlids are aggressive, or things like that. Google goes a long way. Many of the questions asked on here can easily be answered by a quick google search.
 
The thinking there is that thy are sensitive and that the toxins will build up a lot quicker in a ten gallon than a 20. There is 100% more water volume to pollute it is a rather latge difference. It could be the difference between .25 and .5 ppm of ammonia. That could kill a fish if left unattended for even a short period of time.

Readings like .5 ppm of ammonia aren't likely to linger in a tank with an established nitrogen cycle regardless of it being 20,10 or even 5 gallons right? Especially with 1 or 2 fish in it.
So saying such a large tank is necessary isn't as helpful as saying you should have a tank that can handle waste efficiently. I'm pretty confident I can get my tank's level of filtration and bacteria to a suitable standard to keep ammonia in check.
And I'm not going to put something in until I know it is.
Saying this.. If keeping ammonia in check means semi-regular water changes, that's not a problem as non-chlorinated water runs on tap here.
Any other tips? Besides just saying get a huge tank? Java ferns and lucky bamboo (just the roots)will also be in the tank.. And maybe some shrimp, if the blue guy doesn't eat them.
 
Oaky that's true for ammonia but not true for nitrates they will build up a a lot quicker in smaller tanks. I'm just saying that it is important for the well being of the fish to stock properly. It's easier for a beginner to maintain a larger tank trut me I know from experience.
 
Oaky that's true for ammonia but not true for nitrates they will build up a a lot quicker in smaller tanks. I'm just saying that it is important for the well being of the fish to stock properly. It's easier for a beginner to maintain a larger tank trut me I know from experience.
It depends on the ammount of bb and waste.
 
If you want to learn everything yourself and cast every piece of advise given as the person giving it doesn't know and hasn't got any fact based quotes then there is only one thing you can do and that is either dont create a new thread on a forum asking a question about something you are unsure on/leave the site because it does what it says on the tin... Gives AQUARIUM ADVICE! By other members who have more experience and knowledge on the question/matter in your thread other wise they wouldn't comment. It's all well and good throwing a heck load of fish that aren't comparable in a glass box but I believe this forum try's to take the aquarium hobby into the next level and swap your glass box filled with water and loads of stupid mixes of fish that will outgrow the tank etc. and change It into a beautiful little snippet of nature as if you have just taken a picture with an underwater camera of the amazon! This is my thoughts :)
 
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Oaky that's true for ammonia but not true for nitrates they will build up a a lot quicker in smaller tanks. I'm just saying that it is important for the well being of the fish to stock properly. It's easier for a beginner to maintain a larger tank trut me I know from experience.

Nitrates get taken up by plants.
That's the plan anyway.
I'm gonna head to bed.
It's been good chatting, there is an actual chat room on here ey? I might check it out next time in on.
 
It depends on the ammount of bb and waste.

Yes but if stocked slowly at first the beginner will gain experience when there id less stock and less waste and hopefully in a few months time when the tank is fully stocked he should have more of an idea what must be done.
 
Alas! The ART and the SCIENCE of aquariums is confronting itself again. It is still EXACTLY the same today as it was 50 years ago. This is one of the most individualistic hobbys with as many variations as the people who partake. Relax, enjoy, research, learn and do it your way. Success is 88% research, 10% advise and 2% opinion. Be grateful for what you learn, share gracefully. Advice is there for us to consider, but decisions are ours to take. Make them on your own. Life & Luck, OS.
 
I have to respectfully disagree with this. It does matter how big the tank is, not just the bioload. You simply can not physically fit a 3ft koi or a 2ft pleco into a 10g tank. A bigger filter is not going to change the physical dimensions of a tank or a fish. There is also a limit to the biological capacity of any tank no matter how many filters you add. There is simply only so much real estate for beneficial bacteria to grow on.

As others have already mentioned, the intent of this forum is to provide helpful advice that places the emphasis on ethical fish keeping practices. We all want our fish to be happy and healthy and thrive in appropriate environments rather than simply surviving in less than optimal conditions. :)

I was just talking about waste part
 
The size of your aquarium per fish or fish per aquarium is based on a lot of things. Including (but not limited to) number of fish, type of fish, type of filtration, quality of water, frequency and volume of water changes, food being fed, number of plants.

When someone says "that will not work" and "you need a tank of at least this size" for someone's setup, they generally don't know all the finer details that are important before making that determination. If you have normal water conditions, good filtration, and do 80% water changes daily, you can keep almost anything in anything, almost.
 
I was just talking about waste part
Even the waste part is false. You can't have enough biological filtration for an oscar in a 10 gallon as the toxins will accumulate to fast, eventually overwhelming the beneficial bacteria and killing it.
 
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Even the waste part is false. You can't have enough biological filtration for and oscar in a 10 gallon as the toxins will accumulate to fast, eventually overwhelming the beneficial bacteria and killing it.

Agreed!
 
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