How do you know?

[Spokesman101]

Even the waste part is false. You can't have enough biological filtration for and oscar in a 10 gallon as the toxins will accumulate to fast, eventually overwhelming the beneficial bacteria and killing it.

No way man put a 30 gallon filter in there and tell me it won't work? , im honestly asking im not looking for a fight ha

 

[armymp327]

No way man put a 30 gallon filter in there and tell me it won't work? , im honestly asking im not looking for a fight ha

you can put a fluval 406 canister in there and it still wont work.

even if it did it would not matter, its not about just keeping the fish alive, its about keeping them happy and active. It would be the same as throwing your cat in a small closet and keeping them there forever, or tying the dog to a tree with a 2 ft leash for the rest of his life.

when buying a fish you are taking the responsibility to care for it properly just as you would any other animal. I wish the same animal rights laws applied to fish as they do other animals.

 

[Spokesman101]

you can put a fluval 406 canister in there and it still wont work.

even if it did it would not matter, its not about just keeping the fish alive, its about keeping them happy and active. It would be the same as throwing your cat in a small closet and keeping them there forever, or tieing the dog to a tree with a 2 ft leash for the rest of his life.

But that was not my argument, my argument was about keeping it waste free

 

[Fishanatic]

But that was not my argument, my argument was about keeping it waste free

Still impossible. But what you're not understandind is the rate of accumulation of the waste. It would be too quick for any type of filtration.

 

[Cornstar]

It is interesting that you bring this up. I recently have take a philosophy course and it relates a lot to what you have brought up. How do we know this? How do we believe people or trust them? Why should we believe them? What is fact?

Reality: You can't. Everything you truly believe in is based on something someone told you and this goes back to generations. You believe you are your parents' child, but how can you truly know? Birth certificate? You are believing a doctor's words and your parents' words. But you should not live in a world where you think everyone is trying to screw you over and lie to you. The advices that everyone gives here on AA may sometimes be "too much" (a bigger tank for this fish etc). Ever since starting my fish hobby, I have listened to the advice given to me by AA and nothing have went wrong. I think in the long run, I rather be safe than sorry when caring for my fish or any pet. They are live beings and should not be mistreated in my opinion.

If you want to test the limit of your blue ram in a 10g, you can. But we advise you not to, if the fish dies, we have tried to warn you. But if the fish does not die, well congratulations, you successfully defied the logic we have presented to you. But that is not to say it would flourish in the 10g

 

[Spokesman101]

Still impossible. But what you're not understandind is the rate of accumulation of the waste. It would be too quick for any type of filtration.

So your telling me 165 gallons being pumped an hour isnt enough to keep a 10 gollon clean? , thats ridiculous

 

[Cornstar]

So your telling me 165 gallons being pumped an hour isnt enough to keep a 10 gollon clean? , thats ridiculous

Waste does not magically disappear if that is what you are hoping for.

 

[Spokesman101]

Waste does not magically disappear if that is what you are hoping for.

If you read the whole conversation you would know im talking about 165 being pumped through a filter

 

[Cornstar]

If you read the whole conversation you would know im talking about 165 being pumped through a filter

Regardless, you cannot expect a filter to decompose waste. Waste gets sucked up in the filter and stays there. And they can only hold so much waste until the nitrate builds up in the tank.

 

[calfishguy]

So your telling me 165 gallons being pumped an hour isnt enough to keep a 10 gollon clean? , thats ridiculous

How is a large filter going to keep the water free of ammonia nitrites and nitrates. Passing them through a sponge doesn't do that. Are you familiar with the nitrogen cycle. Ammonia-->nitrites-->nitrites which are then removed by pwcs. No matter how big your filter is you will need to perform many large pwcs daily to keep an Oscar alive in a 10gallon. Even then it would die of stress.

 

[Andy Sager]

Alas! The ART and the SCIENCE of aquariums is confronting itself again. It is still EXACTLY the same today as it was 50 years ago. This is one of the most individualistic hobbys with as many variations as the people who partake. Relax, enjoy, research, learn and do it your way. Success is 88% research, 10% advise and 2% opinion. Be grateful for what you learn, share gracefully. Advice is there for us to consider, but decisions are ours to take. Make them on your own. Life & Luck, OS.

Finaly, a voice of reason. As a Tropical Fish Hobbyist myself for over 45 years and being in the Tropical Fish Business for over 40 of those years, I can tell you that what is going on today is pretty much the same as it was wayyyy back when. You see, I was trained by a certified Icthyologist. I knew about the nitrogen cycle, water chemistry, fish mantainence and all that back then because it was part of the science. We may have just called it different things back then. Truth is, today, people are not doing anything different to what we did back then, they are just using different machines to do it with. Does a HOB biowheel filter really hold more bacteria than a sponge filter? Does that canister filter that is filled with carbon and filter pads really do anything different than the inside corner filter that was filled with charcoal( then later carbon) and filter floss? I think you are diluting yourself if you believe they do. They don't! They just do it better (maybe), faster (maybe), on a larger scale (maybe). But they all acheive the same goals.

About 2 years ago I restarted a breeding program for Bettas. I used all the materials I had kept from my last hatchery (which closed in 1987.) I even had an open can of brine shrimp eggs that I had stored in my freezer at home since then which I began to use as well. I got the same results today as I did then, Great looking fish. The only difference between then and now was that the fish would eat flakefoods and pellets whereas before, they wouldn't touch that kind of stuff. It can only be attributed to better quality foods or generations of fish being raised on this stuff that it's passed on through the genes (Maybe?). Point is, My Bettas that were kept in a jar, as I did back then, were fine and reproduced fine. But to hear that on this site is like I was using cruel and unusual punishment on my fish. No, I wasn't. I just commited to doing the extra work that kept my fish in jars at optimum/ breeding health. They had to be healthy because unhealthy fish don't breed. I'm sure that is written in all the fish books and websites. Again tho, to hear it from others on this site, I was a meany for doing so. ( I'd also be willing to bet that if they ever saw the Betta farms in Thailand and Hong Kong and Singapore, they would never own another Betta using that theory.)

But to the OP's original statement (How do you know?), I agree. My biggest bone of contention with this and other sites is: What makes the person giving the "advice", qualified to do so? I've read so many things on this site that I know are just not true. Not that they might be true in certain cases, but flat out untrue. When I checked the bio of the posters making these statements, there was nothing in the "about me" section that would even begin to make me think that this "advice" is worthy of listening to or even be taken into consideration. HOWEVER, how many people go through that process before following the advice? That's the danger of open forums.
Can a person in say, CA give accurate advice to someone in ,say, Florida? I believe NO unless that person has kept fish in Florida's water. But we can offer general advice about a fish or it's requirements. We experienced fish keepers know that not all water is the same. I moved fish down from NJ to FL back in the 1970s and learned that the hard way. In some of the import stations I've worked at, we needed to alter OUR water and adjust it to the water the fish were coming in from. Once in the station, we gradually reconditioned the fish to our water to reduce fish loss. It was more than a basic acclimation and sometimes took days to accomplish because these were wild caught fish. You have to know something about water chemistry to do this. I'd bet the employees at the local chain pet shops don't, as well as some on this site giving advice. Yes, it's advice we are free to take or ignore, but how does a newbie know which one to do?

Bottom line, water conditions make up the majority of the necessities in order for our fish to live healthy lives. In today's hobby, with so many new sized (at least new to my sizes) fish tanks, gallonage is no longer the real criteria. It's the dimensions of the tank that count. Don't tell me a fish needs 20 gals of water. I've had 20 gal tanks that were 20"Long x 10" wide, 24" long x 12" wide and 30" long x 12" wide. These were all standard tanks to the industry. Fish I've kept in my 30" tanks would not fit in my 20" tanks yet they both held 20 gals of water. Does a newbie know this?
As stated before, within reason and common sense, any fish can be kept in any container of water, if the water conditions can be maintained. One previous poster mentioned that the water quality deteriorates faster in the smaller tank. This is true. But if the hobbyist wants to do the work involved to maintain that water quality and prevent it from deteriorating, who are we to say " It must be done differently!"
How does the newly involved hobbyist know whom on this site to take advice from? Sheets of facts would always help but a better understanding of the nature of the fish would do wonders. But how can we learn the nature of the fish if many of the fish aren't originals or maybe one generation removed from the wild. There are no wild Berry Tetras, Black Sailfin Mollies, Marbled Veiltail Angels, Balloon anything types. These were all man made creations from wild fish. You need to go back at least 3 steps to understand the origin of Berry Tetras, 1 step for Black Mollies, many steps for Marbled Angels. But how does a newbie know this?

Take the above for what it's worth to ya. I just know that I would like to know what qualifies you to give me the advice you are giving me and how it was determined. The designations under our screen names don't necessarily reflect our experiences or knowledge. How is a newbie supposed to know that? I tried to put all my qualifications in my bio so that those who look, can know that I just might know a little bit about what we are all trying to do with our fishy friends.

To the OP, Bravo for making this thread

 

[Cynic]

So your telling me 165 gallons being pumped an hour isnt enough to keep a 10 gollon clean? , thats ridiculous

It doesn't sound like you understand what a filter does.

On topic I'm considering doing crystal meth. I've heard some people have done it before and it was awesome with no repercussions. I know 99% of the internet says this is a bad idea but 99% of them wouldn't have tried it.

 

[Fishanatic]

So your telling me 165 gallons being pumped an hour isnt enough to keep a 10 gollon clean? , thats ridiculous

Not at all. It's no where close to keep it clean if the BIOLOAD is too big! Even with a 500 gph flow with bb in it, still wouldn't be enough. As said, it doesn't just dissapear, it takes a lot of time to remove the ammonia. Too much too fast will just overload the beneficial bacteria.

 

[Old Scales]

Greetings Andy!
Nice to meet another old timer who's actually "been there, done that".
Life & Luck. OS.

 

[Andy Sager]

Greetings Andy!
Nice to meet another old timer who's actually "been there, done that".
Life & Luck. OS.

Thanks. I know, we are a hard thing to find these days It's why I joined here, to help out the newbies. I love this hobby and it made me a nice living. It still can with the proper guidence.

 

[Andy Sager]

Not at all. It's no where close to keep it clean if the BIOLOAD is too big! Even with a 500 gph flow with bb in it, still wouldn't be enough. As said, it doesn't just dissapear, it takes a lot of time to remove the ammonia. Too much too fast will just overload the beneficial bacteria.

I think you both are missing the point. Yes, having 165 gals per hour filtering a 10 gal tank WILL keep the water mechanically clean but will not keep it biologically clean enough to keep a larger Oscar in it UNLESS, you have an ammonia absorbing agent in the filter that will absorb all but enough ammonia to keep the tank stable. Since nitirification takes time, it cannot be achieved with the over filtering the water but it can be addressed with a constant cleaning out of the filter's catch materials (i.e.floss, pads, etc.) to prevent any accumulation of ammonia production in the water as well as daily higher volume water changes to insure that ammonia production from breathing is also being addressed. While this is not practicle, it IS possible. I think a bigger tank in this instance would be the better idea especially with a larger Oscar.

 

[azmodan]

Sorry, I haven't really read many of the follow-up posts and I'm not aiming this toward anyone particular but I thought I'd chime in my 2 cents.

I would never go so far to consider myself a master or expert in anything really, as even those titles are quite relative. However, I would go so far to say that there I some things in life I do know quite a bit about, much like how there are some here who have dedicated large chunks of their lives to this great hobby. I own GBR but I'm not especially familiar with the exact reasons and particular science as to why they do not take well to high nitrates, but I trust the countless resources online and on this forum that state to keep nitrates low. I frequently pass on this information to enthused prospective GBR owners without hesitation even though I cannot tell them the exact physiological process a GBR would go through in a high nitrate tank. On my end it is imperfect information, but it's safe to say a great deal of information in all things is that way. If someone were to correct me I would certainly brush aside ego and extend my ears to learn something new. That is one important way how we learn.

Now it's true that I've definitely seen forum members here not be particularly gentle to new aquarists who've made ill-advised decisions, but that is to be expected in a passionate hobby filled with young, old, mature, immature, stubborn, and sometimes impatient people -- much like how the very people asking for advice are often the same way too. It is certainly not an excuse, however, and there could often be more tact perhaps on both ends but for the most part good information and advice at AA is provided in one form or another. In the end I often remind myself that ultimately despite the disagreement or lack of tact these are still fellow aquarists (whether budding or experienced) -- someone sharing this unique passion with me. That is likely a bit off-topic but I find it still worth mentioning.

So while I cannot claim to know many things about this hobby with exact truth, I can honestly say I advise and learn on this forum without ego and with genuineness. Advice I provide is based on knowledge that I trust, and I always look forward to the varying opinions and experiences of others. Often it takes a little extra of that trust in forum members (or mankind...) to fully accept the spread of imperfect information but when you develop it you'll find that doors will open to a wealth of knowledge. Walk through those doors and you'll never turn back.

 

[Old Scales]

Well said Az, thank you. Let's share our experiences and gain. Let those who choose to dictate reveal their nature as best only they can. Life & luck and looking forward to exchanging ideas and experiences. OS.

 

[Zimmanski]

Thanks guys, circular arguments get us no where. Unsubscribing

 

[Fishanatic]

I think you both are missing the point. Yes, having 165 gals per hour filtering a 10 gal tank WILL keep the water mechanically clean but will not keep it biologically clean enough to keep a larger Oscar in it UNLESS, you have an ammonia absorbing agent in the filter that will absorb all but enough ammonia to keep the tank stable. Since nitirification takes time, it cannot be achieved with the over filtering the water but it can be addressed with a constant cleaning out of the filter's catch materials (i.e.floss, pads, etc.) to prevent any accumulation of ammonia production in the water as well as daily higher volume water changes to insure that ammonia production from breathing is also being addressed. While this is not practicle, it IS possible. I think a bigger tank in this instance would be the better idea especially with a larger Oscar.

That's exactly what I'm trying to explain. I'm saying it can't be enough to biologically filter an oscars bio load and toxins excreted from that. As for what you said, it would take a lot of water changes, but it is possible. But our point is to try to make it livable for both you and the fish, not something to endure or that is, in this case challenging.