How do you know?

[Apesfate]

Just a quick question.

I see people jumping down new hobbyist's throats about their tank size and plucking numbers out of thin air for what they heard or read in the same regurgitated spiel in another post where they were jumping down the throat of another new hobbyist.
And I've got a simple question.
How do you know?
How can you be so sure the fish will die and it will be awful and this person should panic and buy a massive tank so they can have 3 fish swimming around, boring as anything?

Did you try it?
What's the technique for deciding how big a tank a fish or number of fish needs?
That's what I want to hear. I don't want an answer like" because this guy says so"
No, I want actual experience. Because I'm pretty sure half you guys who chime in on any thread started by a new guy/girl saying what he/she stocked in his/her tank , with the unanimous "that's way overstocked" comments, are just saying what you saw that other guy write.
Not that you're always wrong.
But a slightly over stocked fish tank will even it's self out wont it?
Won't that be the lesson that will make a better aquarist?
Not being told "you have a tank that's big enough for one tetra and therefore should only have one tetra".
How small a tank can one tetra(edit most likely one betta is the general advice given as one tetra is actually not a good idea) live in and not get sick or be too stressed?
Stress, ah the fish will be stressed? You know that the stress of any situation decreases with time right? And growth stunting is painful? It's a natural occurrence, painful the entire life of the fish? I highly doubt that.
I just wanted to say some things I haven't seen expressed elsewhere on these forums and wanted to trace the information to a source of some sort.

On another note I bet some of you do some things differently to what the majority do and
I'm sure you'll all have had some experience that taught you what you know, so please share any thing you have learnt in your hobby that you think could be helpful.
Little things.
Eg. My Mum had heaps of goldfish, she had them in a plastic lined wooden barrel and in various tanks around the house. She used a blue salt in some of the tanks, I think the only fish I ever saw die was one that had jumped out and got trodden on :-( . Another one jumped out and half dried up but after being put in the water again, came through in the end.
Things and experiences like this shape my ideas on what can go into a smaller tank.
What have you guys got?

Lol. Quick question? That's how I started this massive rant. Ah well

[Smcoyle87]

Needed to be said. Thank you.

[Fishanatic]

Originally Posted by Apesfate

Just a quick question.

I see people jumping down new hobbyist's throats about their tank size and plucking numbers out of thin air for what they heard or read in the same regurgitated spiel in another post where they were jumping down the throat of another new hobbyist.
And I've got a simple question.
How do you know?
How can you be so sure the fish will die and it will be awful and this person should panic and buy a massive tank so they can have 3 fish swimming around, boring as anything?

Did you try it?
What's the technique for deciding how big a tank a fish or number of fish needs?
That's what I want to hear. I don't want an answer like" because this guy says so"
No, I want actual experience. Because I'm pretty sure half you guys who chime in on any thread started by a new guy/girl saying what he/she stocked in his/her tank , with the unanimous "that's way overstocked" comments, are just saying what you saw that other guy write.
Not that you're always wrong.
But a slightly over stocked fish tank will even it's self out wont it?
Won't that be the lesson that will make a better aquarist?
Not being told "you have a tank that's big enough for one tetra and therefore should only have one tetra".
How small a tank can one tetra live in and not get sick or be too stressed?
Stress, ah the fish will be stressed? You know that the stress of any situation decreases with time right? And growth stunting is painful? It's a natural occurrence, painful the entire life of the fish? I highly doubt that.
I just wanted to say some things I haven't seen expressed elsewhere on these forums and wanted to trace the information to a source of some sort.

On another note I bet some of you do some things differently to what the majority do and
I'm sure you'll all have had some experience that taught you what you know, so please share any thing you have learnt in your hobby that you think could be helpful.
Little things.
Eg. My Mum had heaps of goldfish, she had them in a plastic lined wooden barrel and in various tanks around the house. She used a blue salt in some of the tanks, I think the only fish I ever saw die was one that had jumped out and got trodden on :-( . Another one jumped out and half dried up but after being put in the water again, came through in the end.
Things and experiences like this shape my ideas on what can go into a smaller tank.
What have you guys got?

Lol. Quick question? That's how I started this massive rant. Ah well

I personally base myself on research. We give advice, not orders, so don't take it as an offence. As for where the information comes, its by scaling the ammount of bio load and the required space to technically be happy. The recommended conditions are usually for the fish to have space to swim and let the tank support its bio load. People actually have jobs to research this stuff.

[Smcoyle87]

I think what he was trying to say is that when a lot of people on here give advice, it comes off as hostile. Also, unless it's actually your job to do the research that pertains to aquarium fishkeeping, don't act like you're an expert. Especially when you just did a google search and chose to quote the first website that came up. Yeah, a real "expert" that person is.
That said, I agree that it really is just advice and not orders.

(Fishanatic this was not directed at you, just adding to what you said.)

[Apesfate]

Originally Posted by Fishanatic

I personally base myself on research. We give advice, not orders, so don't take it as an offence. As for where the information comes, its by scaling the ammount of bio load and the required space to technically be happy. The recommended conditions are usually for the fish to have space to swim and let the tank support its bio load. People actually have jobs to research this stuff.

Yeh, I'm very appreciative of the advice of this community and I do respect it, I just wanted to have a bit of a grumble.
I'm preparing a tank for a couple of cobalt balloon rams.
It's a 5 gallon tank and I know it's gonna be challenge but I'm confident I can pull it off.
The thing about it is the length of the tank.
It's about 20 inches long.
I think that's enough for them to build up a fair bit of speed when they wanna stretch out and the filter is rated for twice the tank I have.
I have a nice cycle building up that has 8ppm of ammonia in it now and the nitrates are building up faster each day and It has only been going for a week.

[Fishanatic]

Originally Posted by Apesfate

Yeh, I'm very appreciative of the advice of this community and I do respect it, I just wanted to have a bit of a grumble.
I'm preparing a tank for a couple of cobalt balloon rams.
It's a 5 gallon tank and I know it's gonna be challenge but I'm confident I can pull it off.
The thing about it is the length of the tank.
It's about 20 inches long.
I think that's enough for them to build up a fair bit of speed when they wanna stretch out and the filter is rated for twice the tank I have.
I have a nice cycle building up that has 8ppm of ammonia in it now and the nitrates are building up faster each day and It has only been going for a week.

Usually, for a moderate bio load, a filtration of at least 5 times is preferable. This can be proven from experience.

[Apesfate]

Originally Posted by Fishanatic

Usually, for a moderate bio load, a filtration of at least 5 times is preferable. This can be proven from experience.

Is bioload the reason rams have been said to need a bigger tank?

[Fishanatic]

Originally Posted by Apesfate

Is bioload the reason rams have been said to need a bigger tank?

I don't know much about rams, but its possible.

[Zimmanski]

Rams need a larger tank simply because they are more sensetive to nitrate and other toxins, that can quickly change and swing in a smaller tank.
And when you say "wont it just even itself out and wont that be lesson enough, by even itself out you mean fish dying right? seems to me like that is a lesson that can be taught a different way. I dont like how hostile some posts can come off sometimes and its easy to feel like people are ganging up on another, but most people on here actually do have a lot of very good experience and suggestions that sometimes the person asking the question just seems to ignore. Should I have to have experience with ammonia killing all of my fish before I am allowed to say "ammonia is bad"? No. Should people cruely throw "facts" pulled from thin air at a person simply asking for help and bashing them for their mistake? also No.

[SKB]

I think this website is to give advice, not that they are scolding you or telling you you have to do it. Sometimes people have to learn for themselves. Sometimes some people do get a little mean, but those posts should be ignored. I believe in what I learn on here, only because ive experienced and done some stupid things, that lead to the death or disease/parasite of some very beautiful fish I wanted to keep. There are names of people on here, I completely trust. Everyone does their part because everyone has had different experiences, and most of the time are very friendly when going about doing so. There are so many people on the forum that you almost never can not find anyone that hasn't had your experience, so theres always a solution....But, that's IMO. Actually, this site has made me more in love with fish keeping, because since ive taken the advice, ive had no problems and my fish are more beautiful then ever. I love how theres always something more to learn.

[calfishguy]

Originally Posted by Zimmanski

Rams need a larger tank simply because they are more sensetive to nitrate and other toxins, that can quickly change and swing in a smaller tank.
And when you say "wont it just even itself out and wont that be lesson enough, by even itself out you mean fish dying right? seems to me like that is a lesson that can be taught a different way. I dont like how hostile some posts can come off sometimes and its easy to feel like people are ganging up on another, but most people on here actually do have a lot of very good experience and suggestions that sometimes the person asking the question just seems to ignore. Should I have to have experience with ammonia killing all of my fish before I am allowed to say "ammonia is bad"? No. Should people cruely throw "facts" pulled from thin air at a person simply asking for help and bashing them for their mistake? also No.

Well said. I just want to add that we get hostile because we don't like when innocent fish get killed because of human error. Also if you want to get expert help pay an ichthyologist to help you. This thread is somewhat convincing me to stop spending my valuable time helping others especially considering that it doesn't seem to be appreciated.

If you don't want to know the often brutal truth maybe it's best to simply not ask.

[Spokesman101]

It doesnt matter how big the tank is if you worried about bioload, a bigger filter will fix that

[calfishguy]

Originally Posted by Spokesman101

It doesnt matter how big the tank is if you worried about bioload, a bigger filter will fix that

Not true of you have a huge bio load in a small tank nitrates will build very quickly and pwcs will have to be performed very often.

[Fishanatic]

Originally Posted by Spokesman101

It doesnt matter how big the tank is if you worried about bioload, a bigger filter will fix that

Not to offend you but that's not true. Oscars have high bio load, but still need room to swim. Same for goldfish, etc...

[jlk]

Originally Posted by Spokesman101

It doesnt matter how big the tank is if you worried about bioload, a bigger filter will fix that

I have to respectfully disagree with this. It does matter how big the tank is, not just the bioload. You simply can not physically fit a 3ft koi or a 2ft pleco into a 10g tank. A bigger filter is not going to change the physical dimensions of a tank or a fish. There is also a limit to the biological capacity of any tank no matter how many filters you add. There is simply only so much real estate for beneficial bacteria to grow on.

As others have already mentioned, the intent of this forum is to provide helpful advice that places the emphasis on ethical fish keeping practices. We all want our fish to be happy and healthy and thrive in appropriate environments rather than simply surviving in less than optimal conditions.

[Mrs.h2012]

New members here make posts about needing advice/help and we give it and just because its not what they want to hear they get all defensive and completely ignore advice that is given to them. That's when a lot of us get defensive because we try and help and when someone won't listen innocent fish lives are lost when it could've been prevented. My first go around with fish years ago was a nightmare. I'm glad I found this site with my second go around with fish, it had made everything a million times easier! I really wish I would've known what I do now back then!

Edited to add: we've had this experience with a good many of new members, not all new members. There are some who take the advice to heart.

[Apesfate]

Originally Posted by Zimmanski

Rams need a larger tank simply because they are more sensetive to nitrate and other toxins, that can quickly change and swing in a smaller tank.
And when you say "wont it just even itself out and wont that be lesson enough, by even itself out you mean fish dying right? seems to me like that is a lesson that can be taught a different way. I dont like how hostile some posts can come off sometimes and its easy to feel like people are ganging up on another, but most people on here actually do have a lot of very good experience and suggestions that sometimes the person asking the question just seems to ignore. Should I have to have experience with ammonia killing all of my fish before I am allowed to say "ammonia is bad"? No. Should people cruely throw "facts" pulled from thin air at a person simply asking for help and bashing them for their mistake? also No.

But for example you started this post with a statement about rams being sensitive to nitrate.
So you know this for a fact?
I don't mean "have you kept them?"
I mean is that an actual fact that they are indeed more sensitive to nitrates?
And how sensitive are we talking?
If I understood exactly how to calculate the bio load of a fish, it would be fantastic. I mean, walking into a pet store and you see tanks FULL of fish..
So it's very difficult to put it all together and decide if a tank is too small.

Is there a way to calculate a fish's bioload? Like how much ammonia a fish expels. I understand its a combination of faeces and ammonia expelled from scales and gills.
That would be very handy in calculating tank requirements. Rather than just a specific size of container we should have a rating system for how well our combination of filters and plants combined with the size if the tank can handle waste (all stages)
And then have a matching system for each breed of fish based on sensitivity and Waste production...
That's what those guys who do this for a living should be working on.

[Spokesman101]

I clearly said I was only taking about the bioload

[Mrs.h2012]

Originally Posted by Apesfate

But for example you started this post with a statement about rams being sensitive to nitrate.
So you know this for a fact?
I don't mean "have you kept them?"
I mean is that an actual fact that they are indeed more sensitive to nitrates?
And how sensitive are we talking?
If I understood exactly how to calculate the bio load of a fish, it would be fantastic. I mean, walking into a pet store and you see tanks FULL of fish..
So it's very difficult to put it all together and decide if a tank is too small.

Is there a way to calculate a fish's bioload? Like how much ammonia a fish expels. I understand its a combination of faeces and ammonia expelled from scales and gills.
That would be very handy in calculating tank requirements. Rather than just a specific size of container we should have a rating system for how well our combination of filters and plants combined with the size if the tank can handle waste (all stages)
And then have a matching system for each breed of fish based on sensitivity and Waste production...
That's what those guys who do this for a living should be working on.

No idea if there's a way to calculate waste, but its generally known that pleco's, mollies and platies have larger bioloads than most other fish... They poop a lot. If you keep them, it won't take you long to see they poop a lot; very rarely do I look in my tank and not see my platy pooping lol. When it comes to what size tank a fish needs, it's activity level is also taken into consideration. Take a Molly for example; mollies are active fish and need swimming room. Putting a Molly in a 10g would be like keeping a dog, like a German Shepard for example, that needs room to run around in a pen 24//7. Simple research will tell you if a fish is a more active fish or not.

[calfishguy]

Originally Posted by Apesfate

But for example you started this post with a statement about rams being sensitive to nitrate.
So you know this for a fact?
I don't mean "have you kept them?"
I mean is that an actual fact that they are indeed more sensitive to nitrates?
And how sensitive are we talking?
If I understood exactly how to calculate the bio load of a fish, it would be fantastic. I mean, walking into a pet store and you see tanks FULL of fish..
So it's very difficult to put it all together and decide if a tank is too small.

Is there a way to calculate a fish's bioload? Like how much ammonia a fish expels. I understand its a combination of faeces and ammonia expelled from scales and gills.
That would be very handy in calculating tank requirements. Rather than just a specific size of container we should have a rating system for how well our combination of filters and plants combined with the size if the tank can handle waste (all stages)
And then have a matching system for each breed of fish based on sensitivity and Waste production...
That's what those guys who do this for a living should be working on.

Aquadvisor is a descent tool for that. Experience however is the best tool in the hobby. Thats why we come here.


Check out the tropical fishkeepingforum they do everything To the absolute letter. This may be the type of advice youre looking for.