I just realized pH means nothing.

[Todd2]

Well folks, after working at an LFS for a while I think I just realized pH means nothing, unless of course you're doing Discus, Africans, or breeding fish.

People come in all the time asking for their water to be tested. I ask them the normal questions. And when I ask them how long it's been set up they say "A couple days, we just wanted to see if our pH/water is ok".

And then it's like well.. why wouldn't it be ok?

And then in the other scenario there's people who have tank crashes or some other bad thing happen and after I tell them there pH is 6.7 or 7.5. They say in a concerned tone "Oh really, jeez, that's way off 7.0".

It hurts me to see these people's ignorance. Does it really matter what your pH is like? Like I said unless you're trying to breed fish or keep delicate fish it doesn't.

They think their problem is the pH. It isn't the "magical" 7.0. I think Rex Grigg's site says that if you can drink you're water, it's fine for fish/plants. What's important is the ammonia and nitrite levels and whether or not there have been any sudden changes in the tank.

People get caught up so much w/ their pH and pH up/down that it just causes more problems and that leads them to believe that the pH has to be perfect. Which isn't the case! When I try to explain that a stable pH is more important than one that is 7.0, most people look at me like I have 3 heads. "Then why do they have pH down/up?" they say.

I can't even remeber the last time I tested my pH. The only time I really test it is if something dies. And sometimes I don't even do that, I'll just do ammonia & nitrite.

I don't think your zebra danio cares whether the pH is 6.8 or 7.6.

Does anyone else share my point of view on pH? It'd be interesting to see if anyone agrees/disagrees.

 

[rich311k]

I completely agree PH means nothing, stability is what matters.

 

[IceH2O]

True it means nothing but it should still be tested weekly.

A drop in pH from your normal levels can indicate a problem starting to surface and you catching it before its to late.

A pH drop can be caused by a higher than normal organic waste problem, or to much ammonia which causes more nitrifying bacteria which eat up KH. Not to mention other scenarios.

So while I agree that pH stability is more important than proper pH for the fish I would still promote the testing of pH weekly.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

I completely agree with ph meaning nothing, except in the situation where it's swinging due to something going very wrong in the tank. And this is best corrected by a PWC, not other chemicals. The only chemical that you should put in your tank to correct the problem is fresh water....

 

[coldmachineUK]

*Nods. pH changes can cause sudden deaths though: I've seen this happen with colleagues' tanks.
It's the same motto for most things (even temperature I've found): you can keep fish in less than ideal conditions provided they are consistently at those conditions. E.g. a +/- 1 or 2 degrees temp, pH.

Natural solutions for *anything* are better than medications or chemical treatments. Use natural materials such as bogwood/driftwood or limestone etc. etc. etc. to correct pH gradually.

But, pH is still important in two senses:
1. Way off pH differences are...let's say...unhelpful. If your fish needs a very acidic or alkaline pH then having it totally the opposite end of the spectrum will not do it good let's be honest.
2. If you are bringing fish in from an LFS where the pH is quite different to that of your tank then acclimatisation (which should be a must anyway, is definitely a must!).

 

[talloulou]

I can understand the local fish shop testing water for pH. If tests show the pH crashed then you have a pretty good indication that the fish died cause the person has a neglected tank "old tank syndrome." The stores see this alot as the person generally has a few hardy fish that acclimated to the crap water over time however any new species they add drops dead in under 24 hours. They blame the store. The store tests the ph and tells them their tank has "old tank syndrome. I guess they could just test the nitrates which would most likely be sky high but you get a lot of "old school" people who don't believe high nitrates harm fish. So evidence of the pH crash helps them understand the scenario.

You have to remember that today books are saying that you should change more water more of the time to keep your fish healthy.

Back in the day they honestly believed you shouldn't mess with the tank too much and if you changed too much water too much of the time you were inviting problems.

You should never monkey with your pH as a stable pH is best and unless you really know what you are doing and have a specific aim changing your pH with chemicals will do more harm than good. So in that respect people are better off not worrying over their pH.

However if the pH is swinging wildly out of control then pH suddenly becomes very important and while the fix for that is better tank maintenance and not chemicals....it's sort of misleading to say pH has no meaning or is entirely unimportant.

 

[krap101]

actually for most beginning fishkeepers, ph is a big deal. most of them dont have a cycled tank, therefore have ammonia in their tank. i forget which way, but i think the more alkaline the water gets the more toxic ammonia gets. i think i saw a chart on it once, but i reformatted my computer.. sooo...

 

[7Enigma]

The higher the pH, more of the ammonia is in the dangerous NH3+ state. At the lower pH levels there are more free H+ ions present, and so it is in the much less toxic (but still toxic) NH4 sate. Any like anything in chemistry we are talking about the majority of the ammonia molecules; that is even at high pH's some of the molecules are NH4, its just that predominately they are in the more dangerous NH3+ form.

 

[Skyrmir]

For the people that say "Why do they sell Ph up/down?". Just tell them that they can also buy adult diapers at the grocery store. Just because it's there doesn't mean you should use it if you don't need it.

You've got the right idea on ph. It's fine wherever it is as long as it doesn't change. The only concern for a fish store should be if the customers water doesn't match the store water, the customer will have to acclimate the fish more carefully. Otherwise they come back pissy and wanting a new fish the next day, to replace the one they executed.

 

[StinkyPete]

For what it's worth, my two tanks hadn't cycled after six months of constant experimentation with almost every variable except pH (my tap water is between 6.0 and 6.2). In desperation, I added some Seachem Neutral Regulator to bring the pH up to about 7.0. Within hours, I saw my first trace of nitrites, and about a week later both tanks were fully cycled.

Since then, I've experimented with crushed coral and have maintained a pH of 7.4 with no ill effects. Recently, I've abandoned the coral and reverted to tap water pH (currently 6.1). None of my fish--tetras, cory cats, and a gourami--have seemed to care a whit. And my bacteria don't seem to mind the low pH, either, now that the cycle is complete.

I have no explanation. These are merely observations. Has anyone else had a similar experience?

 

[src]

Cycling is a different issue. The bacteria that the cycle produces go dormant around pH 6, so naturally a tank with a pH of 6 or 6.2 will cycle VERY slowly, if at all. This also means that a low pH tank will have a harder time supporting the bacteria colony. On the plus side, the lower the pH, the more ammonia the fish can tolerate without ill effect.

 

[kreesdqban]

Dam I wish I would have read this thread before I went out and bought some Neutral Regulator to lower my ph from around 7.6

Thanks guys

 

[GhostKnife]

for the people that say "why do they sell ph up/down?". Just tell them that they can also buy adult diapers at the grocery store. Just because it's there doesn't mean you should use it if you don't need it.

You've got the right idea on ph. It's fine wherever it is as long as it doesn't change. The only concern for a fish store should be if the customers water doesn't match the store water, the customer will have to acclimate the fish more carefully. Otherwise they come back pissy and wanting a new fish the next day, to replace the one they executed.

nice nice nice

 

[aveldina]

In my experience the frustrating part can be trying to get advice from my petstore when all they'll tell me is "oh your pH was too high, buy some of this to fix it." Frustrated I started using 50/50 RO/Tap water changes to try and slowly bring down the pH in my tank since I kept hearing "don't use chemical to lower pH" along with "your pH is too high to keep fish X". Yeah, even with the driftwood and the RO water and all my plants my pH is still 7.8.
The fish are active, crazy eaters with beautiful color. Works for me.

 

[Pinchy11]

omg that is the most truth i have heard since george w bush spoke about the escalating situation in iraq. ive had my tank since i was a wee little boy and the only time i have tested it was maybe the first month and i havnt done it since .now im not condoning blatant negligence and the odd test wont do any harm but speaking in general it really dosnt matter.couldn't agree more

 

[humdedum]

Yeah, kind of. But i am breeding my fish, and for kribs, pH is everything for the sex ratio pn the babies.

 

[shadylady23]

What is too low? Mine has been consistantly at 6.6 in my freshwater tank and today it was 6.4, so I don't know if I should do something.

 

[Dekz]

I agree completely that it means nothing. My pH is 8.0+ in all of my tanks and I have Neons, Rams, Gouramis, all kinds of stuff that supposedly needs a low pH. It's funny that in this thread we all seem to agree on this, yet whenever somebody asks what kind of fish to stock their tank with, the forum always says "Tell us you water parameteres and we'll recommend some fish".

 

[Fishyfanatic]

Desk- Water parameters "can" play a part in fish selection. Like if you have a pH of 8.8, it may be best to go with African Cichlids (tank size allowable). Or if you have very low pH, Africans may not be the best choice. Africans don't "require" a high pH but it does help.