I Need a Serious YES or NO Answer Here: Exhausted Carbon and my Fancy Goldfish...

[ArtesiaWells]

I am uncertain as to the best place on the forum for this question to be posted, but since it pertains to the health of my goldfish, I figured the "Unhealthy Fish" section may have been more ideal; at any rate, my apologies if this is not the ideal area...

My Black/Gold Moor has been exhibiting signs of an "ulcer" outbreak of some kind, in which "pimple-like" formations have jutted out from beneath her scales, but which also disappear just as quickly...for the last few weeks, she has shown these signs, as if "whiteheads" are trying to burst from beneath her scales, and there was even a "cotton-y white" looking growth near her hind fins, but, as I said, these all seem to "pop" or disappear on their own. Making things even more confusing is the fact that she shows absolutely NO signs of distress during these periods -- she is swimming happily and eating and showing no symptoms of stress or sickness...

Currently, she seems to be doing very well, and down to just one smallish pimple that looks like it's trying to break its way from beneath her scales...

Here's where things get a bit tricky: One of the HOB filters I run on my 60 gallon goldfish tank, an Aqueon QuietFlow 55, takes dual carbon "cartridges" made of floss, and I have been running the same two cartridges in the filter since setting up the new tank, which has been for about two months or so...Aqueon recommends changing these cartridges every six or so weeks, claiming the blue plastic "bio grids" and "bio holsters" house the beneficial bacteria, thus allowing the cartridges to be thrown away and replaced when they get nasty looking (actually, last week during a partial mid-week water change, I swapped out ONE of the cartridges for a new one -- this filter takes TWO carts -- with the hope of maintaining any BB colonies that may have been residing in the one I didn't take out...I figured I would wait about four or five weeks before swapping out the second, in a "staggered" process...).

From everything I have been told about this cartridge media, they actually don't need to be replaced even when the carbon is exhausted, as they can be dunked and rinsed in removed tank water just like the AquaClear-style media, whereby the sponges and BioMax gets rinsed off and reused; and so, thinking this was okay, I have been simply "dunking" my Aqueon's cartridges in removed water during water changes, getting off loose debris and such, even though my carbon MUST be exhausted...

BUT -- just recently, I had this discussion with someone on the KOKOS GOLDFISH FORUM, which is an enthusiast site for goldfish owners, and he suggested to me that something MAY actually be toxifying my water due to the exhausted carbon...and it sounds like what these pathogens are causing are the "ulcers" I am seeing on my Moor...please read this:

1. Were it not for the carbon, the rest of the media is just like the DIYs, you can rinse it and reuse it until it falls apart.

2. I am not one to disregard carbon's importance and use. However, it's really not necessary. Unlike some myths that get passed around, "loaded" carbons do not release back to the water what they once held. Carbon however, can contribute to the increase of phosphates in the water, and that will depend on the brand. Some will have more than others.

3. The real problem is that Aeromonas, a group of pathogenic bacteria, love to colonize in these carbon particles. The longer you leave them there, the more these will grow and can attack your tank. Aeromonas' effects on goldfish include fin problems, ulcers, and wen ulcers.
http://www.who.int/w...q/admicrob2.pdf
http://aem.asm.org/c.../52/3/434.short

Point 3 is the reason why I vehemently oppose the use of carbon long term. It's not necessary. It's expensive, AND it can bring disease to your tank.

That was his FIRST reply to me; the second was THIS:

What I am suggesting is to dispense with carbon entirely. I have not found any convincing arguments as to why they need to be there. From the stand point of having replace them often (every month according to the companies suggestions), to them taking up valuable real estate that could be occupied by other media, to the fact that they can harbor pathogens, to the fact they can leech phosphates all argue against using carbon.

The answer to your question is that no one knows quite when they are exhausted for your system, unless you test it. The companies suggest 1-2 months (depending on the product and the company), but that's really an estimate, and I'm not even sure how good that is.

A new reply from him just came in, concerning me even FURTHER, as we seem to be going around in circles here:

There are many scientific articles showing about Aeromonas living on the carbon particles, as well as the fact that it leeches phosphates, which are also undesirables in the tank.

Could those bumps/cysts be bacterial? Could they be from carbon? Probably. Why can't I say for certain? Because I don't have anyway of having you test for the presence of Aeromonas there, but the symptoms are consistent with Aeromonas driven diseases. More than that, and we would require some microbiology work.

Your last question brings to mind another reason why cartridges are such a terrible idea. Every time you do this, you remove beneficial bacteria, since you are throwing the cartridge away. So, it is the clicheic throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Yes, replace them if you suspect that it's causing you problems. Switch to media that have no carbon.

Having said that, it's your tank, your fish.

As you can see, I am VERY worried now that these "pathogens" he speaks of could have grown on my exhausted carbon inside my Aqueon filter, and is now causing the "bumps" I am seeing on my Moor (he suggests these things can cause ulcers in goldfish)...

Can anyone assist me in making heads or tails with this? Can exhausted carbon REALLY cause these kinds of problems? Should I now yank out the other cartridge I did not change which has been running in the filter for about two months and swap it for a new one right now incase that is what is going on?

Has anyone heard of toxins being THIS seriously leeched back into a tank from exhausted carbon?

Any assistance, insight or opinion here would be greatly appreciated...

EDIT: It seems those pages I cited in the two links that came from the member of the other forum aren't working now; it was where he got his "information" from...I apologize for that...

 

[Fresh N Salt guy]

You seem to know exactly what your talking about. I have had 2 outbreaks in my tank in 6 years. Look at these pics and tell me if either of these resemble the infestation you are seeing

 

[Fresh N Salt guy]

Also, do you see cottony growths floating around your tank or just on your fish? And these white spots, the popping and appearance and disappearance then reappearance inclines the question of are you starting to see them on other fish or just one?

 

[ArtesiaWells]

You seem to know exactly what your talking about.

Huh? Those pieces I quoted and referenced came from someone else on another forum; it was this person who suggested the exhausted carbon in my cartridge media may be causing cysts or ulcers on my goldfish...

I have had 2 outbreaks in my tank in 6 years. Look at these pics and tell me if either of these resemble the infestation you are seeing

Difficult to tell when they're on Discus (I'm presuming?)...

Let me look closer...

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Also, do you see cottony growths floating around your tank or just on your fish? And these white spots, the popping and appearance and disappearance then reappearance inclines the question of are you starting to see them on other fish or just one?

These actually begin as "whitehead" looking "pimples" on our Black/Gold Moor, then begin to "ooze" out a white cottony string, which eventually disappears; I have seen the cottony growths around the tank, but very rarely, and they too disappear as quickly as they appear. As far as I can see, these images you provided above don't really look quite as exact as what we're seeing on our goldfish...

As for other fish being affected, no -- it's relegated to just this one Black/Gold Moor...

 

[TheCommunityCichlid]

Sounds like it could be a parasite to me. I don't think exhausted carbon is the cause. Like you I have left some in for a long time and had no ill effect on my fish. I would treat for an internal and external parasites if i were you.

 

[HUKIT]

YES, the fact that activated carbon can deplete oxygen levels in the aquarium, as the O2 levels start to diminish this increases the chance of an opportunistic Aeromonas bacterial outbreak since these bacteria are anaerobic( which are bacteria that do not need oxygen to live).

 

[DavidAl]

Where on the body are these pimple-like formations? This is obviously unrelated to breeding tubercles, right?

David

 

[pankelephant]

To be clear, carbon does not deplete oxygen levels in any significant way if used properly, nor does it automatically cause aeromonas bacterial outbreaks. Carbon concentrates dissolved organic compounds (DOC), which provide an opportunity for aeromonas to grow, but generally this only happens when there is far too much carbon in the system. And it happens rarely - almost always in situations where the pH is unstable.

Activated carbon can contain phosphates. This happens when the carbon is either activated or washed with phosphoric acid. There is carbon on the market that is steam-activated/phosphate free. This is ideal. Even so, you can remove most of the phosphates and ash by soaking the carbon before use - NOT rinsing. It needs a good 8 hours, stirred up occasionally. Twenty-four hours is best.

While it's true that carbon can desorb/dump toxins back into your tank, this is exceedingly unlikely. You would have to have extreme pH changes - from dangerously acidic to dangerously alkaline or vice versa. Even cleaning carbon requires a kiln that will heat it to 1700 degrees or more.

Finally, carbon is in no way necessary to the health of a tank. Some like it (I do), some don't. In your case OP, I would remove it since it's not doing any good anyway. There's no point in keeping it in your system after 3-4 weeks - by then it's "full." I believe the cartridges to which you are referring are actually bags of filter floss containing carbon? If that's the case, cut them open and dump the carbon. You don't have to change the filter floss - just rinse in tank water one at a time. Your "staggered" approach is correct. Were it me, I would take one out entirely and replace it with better media. After a two months or so (once the new stuff is seeded) you can remove the other one and replace it as well. I'd have some sort of coarse sponge and then some bio-media. But this is just a preference - what you have will work well.

I prefer to keep carbon in an independent bag or something that I can stuff into the filter and then take out when I want. But again, you don't have to use it at all.

Hope this helps.

 

[HUKIT]

To be clear, carbon does not deplete oxygen levels in any significant way if used properly, nor does it automatically cause aeromonas bacterial outbreaks. Carbon concentrates dissolved organic compounds (DOC), which provide an opportunity for aeromonas to grow, but generally this only happens when there is far too much carbon in the system. And it happens rarely - almost always in situations where the ph is unstable.

While I agree with the frequency of these particular circumstances the original poster asked for a YES or NO definitive answer, so YES it's entirely possible activated carbon can house aeromonas bacteria. Although extremely unlikely, especially seeing he's using prepackaged Aqueon replacement cartridges which contain the most minimal amount of activated carbon.

To the OP, could you please post a link to the thread on KOKO's goldfish forums as I like to see the whole story not simply the bits and pieces you've decided to share?

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Sounds like it could be a parasite to me. I don't think exhausted carbon is the cause. Like you I have left some in for a long time and had no ill effect on my fish. I would treat for an internal and external parasites if i were you.

If this is in fact a parasite of some kind, why hasn't it killed her already...or spread to other fish? As I said, she shows no visible signs of distress -- at all -- and is continuing to eat and swim normally, exhibiting her ordinary behaviors; this has been going on for awhile now, and the bumps come and go just as quickly...

How long have you left carbon in your filters? More than two months?

 

[ArtesiaWells]

YES, the fact that activated carbon can deplete oxygen levels in the aquarium, as the O2 levels start to diminish this increases the chance of an opportunistic Aeromonas bacterial outbreak since these bacteria are anaerobic( which are bacteria that do not need oxygen to live).

So this COULD in fact be coming from the exhausted carbon in my filter's cartridges?

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Where on the body are these pimple-like formations? This is obviously unrelated to breeding tubercles, right?

David

Hi David,

The growths pop out mainly from the middle of the sides of her body, like they're "pushing" through the scales; there have also been cotton-y white "lumps" on her backside that also seem to "burst" and then heal up as quickly as they appeared...it is the STRANGEST thing, and has lead me to believe that this fish may in fact be pregnant...but I don't believe they "carry" their fry this way, by showing "body growth," do they?

I was originally inclined to think breeding tubercles based on what someone at Aquarium Forum told me, as he had suggested it may be these, but I don't know now; at one point, the Moor DID show signs of a white, worm-like "thing" exploding and wiggling from one of these "whiteheads" on her body, which I thought may have been these breeding tubercles, but it went away just like it had appeared...

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Hello 'elephant, and thank you for your input -- before I delve into your comments below, let me first say I hope you and the city are doing well in the wake of the terror attack, and I pray you or any members of your family or any friends were not affected in any way by this cowardly act. I am a huge old-school Patriots fan, so I am in your corner...indeed, Boston Strong! (I have even changed my avatar in salute to the people of Boston...via showing passion for the old Pats team!)...

To be clear, carbon does not deplete oxygen levels in any significant way if used properly, nor does it automatically cause aeromonas bacterial outbreaks. Carbon concentrates dissolved organic compounds (DOC), which provide an opportunity for aeromonas to grow, but generally this only happens when there is far too much carbon in the system. And it happens rarely - almost always in situations where the pH is unstable.

Activated carbon can contain phosphates. This happens when the carbon is either activated or washed with phosphoric acid. There is carbon on the market that is steam-activated/phosphate free. This is ideal. Even so, you can remove most of the phosphates and ash by soaking the carbon before use - NOT rinsing. It needs a good 8 hours, stirred up occasionally. Twenty-four hours is best.

While it's true that carbon can desorb/dump toxins back into your tank, this is exceedingly unlikely. You would have to have extreme pH changes - from dangerously acidic to dangerously alkaline or vice versa. Even cleaning carbon requires a kiln that will heat it to 1700 degrees or more.

So, outside of phosphates -- which I battled in my last 60 gallon goldfish setup that caused HORRENDOUS diatoms and which I tried to fight with Seachem's PhosGuard but with no success -- are you saying that regardless of how long the carbon sits exhausted in the media, it shouldn't leach anything back into the tank?

Finally, carbon is in no way necessary to the health of a tank. Some like it (I do), some don't. In your case OP, I would remove it since it's not doing any good anyway.

I realize that to modern hobbyists, carbon has become a kind of "forgotten" media, used only to remove meds or odors from a tank, but I simply use it because it's what comes "standard" in these Aqueon cartridges that go in my QuietFlow 55 HOB; I have also heard carbon is a good water polisher, so without these pads in that Aqueon filter and with no Purigen running in it, I didn't think I had much "polishing" action going on with this HOB...

There's no point in keeping it in your system after 3-4 weeks - by then it's "full."

Indeed, Aqueon suggests changing these every five to six weeks -- but, what I have been doing since setting up this 60 gallon, is taking the cartridges out after awhile during a water change and dunking them/swooshing them in removed tank water, as I do with the AquaClear sponge occasionally, just to get off loose debris...from what I was told, doing this would allow me to reuse the cartridges as long as I wanted to, even though carbon was exhausted, as all that needed to be done was dunk them in removed tank water like any other kind of media...my concern was that by doing this, some kind of pathogens living in the exhausted carbon is leaching back into the water, so I am not sure if I want to continue the "just dunk the cartridges into tank water until they're falling apart" method...

I believe the cartridges to which you are referring are actually bags of filter floss containing carbon?

Yes; they look like THIS:

If that's the case, cut them open and dump the carbon. You don't have to change the filter floss - just rinse in tank water one at a time. Your "staggered" approach is correct. Were it me, I would take one out entirely and replace it with better media. After a two months or so (once the new stuff is seeded) you can remove the other one and replace it as well. I'd have some sort of coarse sponge and then some bio-media. But this is just a preference - what you have will work well.

Are you saying I COULD continue to use the cartridges if I wanted to, but just continue doing the "staggered" thing -- that is, leave one "dirty" one in while a new one is replaced, then changing the old one after six or so weeks?

Hope this helps.

I believe it did, a little...thanks for your assistance, and looking forward to your feedback...

 

[ArtesiaWells]

While I agree with the frequency of these particular circumstances the original poster asked for a YES or NO definitive answer, so YES it's entirely possible activated carbon can house aeromonas bacteria. Although extremely unlikely, especially seeing he's using prepackaged Aqueon replacement cartridges which contain the most minimal amount of activated carbon.

Well, what I was really trying to ascertain here was whether it is likely -- or not -- that this is what is happening in MY tank right now and what could be giving my Black/Gold Moor her "cyst-like" symptoms based on what KOKO's told me...

To the OP, could you please post a link to the thread on KOKO's goldfish forums as I like to see the whole story not simply the bits and pieces you've decided to share?

It's not that I "decided to share ONLY bits and pieces" of this conversation; I supplied what I thought was IMPORTANT information specifically relating to these specific topics; that being said, I'll try to dig up some more contextual communication from that thread...

 

[HUKIT]

So this COULD in fact be coming from the exhausted carbon in my filter's cartridges?

No this is not leaching from your Aqueon filter cartridges, this only happens in the when the carbon is packed excessively(which Aqueon doesn't), left for long period of time, and during a massive PH swing. You have a better chance to win the lottery or get hit by lightning over having a Aeromonas bacterial outbreak as a result of activated carbon. So I'd stop wasting time worrying about this rare phenomenon, it's like Santa Claus...you always hear about him but never actually see him in person!

With regards carbon leaching back into the aquarium, again another regurgitated myth spread around aquarium forums. Can it happen? Sure, will it happen...see previous analogy. This is true in industry, but not in our aquarium. Carbon is widely used in industrial settings to recycle precious metals. Industrial use of carbon involves the capturing of a specific substance at one pH extreme (below 4 or above 10) and then reclaiming the substance by converting to the other pH extreme. If a pH shift of this magnitude occurs in an aquarium, carbon leaching organics back into the water is the least of our worries.

It's not that I "decided to share ONLY bits and pieces" of this conversation; I supplied what I thought was IMPORTANT information specifically relating to these specific topics; that being said, I'll try to dig up some more contextual communication from that thread...

Here I will do it for you:

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzo...?/topic/109634-lets-talk-hob-cartridge-media/

Another one here:

I Need Some Immediate Help Here With Regard to Exhausted Filter Carbon... - Aquarium Forum

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Okay, well, now that you have seen my threads on that forum, you can see the details given surrounding this leaching phenomenon and how it was suggested to me by one of the mods there, Alex, that what my Moor is exhibiting could very well be signs of some kind of parasitic outbreak from the exhausted carbon...

 

[DavidAl]

Artesia,

I'm surprised you haven't posted a pic of the fish with the problem. That might help clear all this up in a heartbeat.

David

 

[HUKIT]

Seeing how you haven't posted pictures on this or any other forum who knows what your fish is suffering from. If you were serious about all of this healing your fish should be the first priority, not wasting time chasing some Internet myths. The term troll was appropriately used in at least one of the other threads in my opinion.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Artesia,

I'm surprised you haven't posted a pic of the fish with the problem. That might help clear all this up in a heartbeat.

David

David,

We're having some problems with my wife's digital camera, and my cell camera is worth nothing; I will try and post pics when I can...for now, I thought my written descriptions of the symptoms would suffice for anyone in the know about these conditions.

The main thing I was trying to ascertain was whether or not exhausted carbon could leach something that could poison or attack a fish...