Impatient with startup high ammonia no sign of a cycle

[squirrilah fish]

I simply dont agree with high ammonia and nitrite levels overwhelming bacteria!! Sounds completely ridiculous to me. Would love to see evidence of some sort.

Why would a large food source overwhelm them? Surely they would thrive??

Take a colony of shrimp as an example. Underfeed and the population will decline to a level where the food source can sustain them. Overfeed and the population will explode. I THINK this is the same for bacteria

That claim may not be entirely factual, I feel like I read something like that when I first started,

The correlation though, and it only applies to a new cycling tank, is the higher these levels are, the longer it takes before you have enough BB to deal with it.

You can make an effort to keep your ammonia as close to zero as possible, and still have BB growth sufficient enough to keep it at zero.

 

[squirrilah fish]

Was this aimed at me??

I have no worries keeping trates under control. Im understocked and have a jungle of a tank lol

No this is too the original poster.

He's discouraged because he's being told he's overstocked, he's going about things wrong, etc.

I'm trying to help him deal with it, I don't want ANYONE coming on here and getting discouraged.

He will learn! I guarantee it, but I'm ok helping him get what he wants, and making the current situation work out as best as it can.

 

[Sk3lly]

That claim may not be entirely factual, I feel like I read something like that when I first started,

The correlation though, and it only applies to a new cycling tank, is the higher these levels are, the longer it takes before you have enough BB to deal with it.

You can make an effort to keep your ammonia as close to zero as possible, and still have BB growth sufficient enough to keep it at zero.

High levels are bad in a fish in cycling environment for obvious reasons. In a fishless cycling tank, high levels will build up a much larger BB colony allowing you to add a large stock of fish instantly instead of taking time over introducing fish.

I hope im not coming across as argumentative? Simply enjoy the discussion

 

[squirrilah fish]

High levels are bad in a fish in cycling environment for obvious reasons. In a fishless cycling tank, high levels will build up a much larger BB colony allowing you to add a large stock of fish instantly instead of taking time over introducing fish.

I hope im not coming across as argumentative? Simply enjoy the discussion

I don't feel like this is a combative discussion at all, very pleased with everyone's input.

I feel very comfortable saying I'm probably wrong with that.

It's been a while since I first researched cycling, but I feel like I read that. If there is more ammonia then the current BB can handle it will start to kill off the BB.
It makes sense to me, but I could be wrong.

Either way he should try to keep ammonia and nitrites as close to zero as possible. Fish in cycling takes longer than fish less cycling for sure.

 

[Sk3lly]

I don't feel like this is a combative discussion at all, very pleased with everyone's input.

I feel very comfortable saying I'm probably wrong with that.

It's been a while since I first researched cycling, but I feel like I read that. If there is more ammonia then the current BB can handle it will start to kill off the BB.
It makes sense to me, but I could be wrong.

Either way he should try to keep ammonia and nitrites as close to zero as possible. Fish in cycling takes longer than fish less cycling for sure.

Totally agree with the keeping levels at 0

What would make high ammonia levels negatively affect the bacteria though??

I really hope a proper experienced aquarist joins in to give a definitive answer lol

 

[squirrilah fish]

Totally agree with the keeping levels at 0

What would make high ammonia levels negatively affect the bacteria though??

I really hope a proper experienced aquarist joins in to give a definitive answer lol

Well Ammonia is toxic. It's happened to other aquarists, for some insane reason ammonia will get ridiculously high, all the fish die, and the BB dies too, and they have to recycle the tank from square one.

I just googled this and found the answer. At. 8.0 ammonia the BB cannot multiply, that's what I was remembering, so I was wrong. The BB doesn't die, but too much ammonia inhibits it from multiplying, and the life span of BB is really short, so if it doesn't multiply, it disappears.

 

[Sk3lly]

Ah see thats interesting. I read a thread where a guy had spent a lot of time researching the specific bacterias involved. He found that the bacteria could actually live for months on end without food. When you say short life span, how short did you think?? Im going to pm the guy to ask if he'll come get involved

 

[squirrilah fish]

I read this on Yahoo answers, so I could be wrong again, lol.

THE POINT IS NEONDUDE:

Keep your ammonia and nitrites down! Lol.

 

[squirrilah fish]

Neon Pedro, I hope we are helping

When I first joined this forum, I got discouraged by similar statements like your tank is overstocked, those fish don't mix, etc. and I left, no one even tried to help me make it work, they just said it wouldn't.

I didn't come back for like a year.

Luckily, I didn't lose any fish. I figured out the balance between the advice I got, and what I wanted in my tank, and I was able to make it work.

Today, my tanks wouldn't hold up to everyone's scrutiny, but I can definitely say it's working, I can definitely say it's manageable, I can definitely say I am happy with it, and I can definitely say AA unequivocally helped me get my tanks where they are.

 

[Sk3lly]

Key word used above

BALANCE

 

[squirrilah fish]

Key word used above

BALANCE

Exactly, you want to put 50 neons in a ten gallon, go for it, but you need enough filtration, and do enough water changes to balance all that waste out.

A lot of new hobbyists see the incredibly overstocked tanks at the fish store and think they can stick like that, but don't realize that the fish store probably had an open system, their 20 10 gallon tanks is actually a big 200 gallon tank and they do huge water changes everyday.

(Also the commercial industry of ornamental fish is quite inhumane, if you ever saw a wholesale goldfish breeding tank you'd want to cry)

 

[squirrilah fish]

Stick with it Pedro, the hardest part of keeping fish is the beginning, figuring everything out, it gets infinitely easier.

My tanks today, I feed em, I clean and do water changes every Sunday, and I kick back with a beer and watch my cichlids fight. I love it!!

(They don't really fight... That much )

 

[squirrilah fish]

Also want to point out, only do more than a 50% change if you have too.

Some here will say NEVER change more than 50% at a time, but in my experience, if nitrites are climbing too high too fast it's better to get them out of there.

The percentage of water you change is the same percentage you are taking out if current ammonia/nitrite levels.

So if your Nitrite reading is at 4ppm ( extremely high) a 50% change gets it to 2ppm, another 50% change takes it to 1ppm, and another 50% change takes it to .5ppm.

You can see why, when I was dealing with Nitrite spikes recently I was doing 2-3 50% water changes A DAY, for a week.

I cannot stress this enough: Nitrites strike HARD and FAST.
When cycling they can easily go up a few ppm in hours. If you work, I would schedule enough time to do a water change before work, after work, and maybe even before bed.

Hopefully, you will be just fine with one water change a day or less, but BE READY, test often.

Lastly, I cannot understate how much of a help Seachem's Stability is. If you haven't gotten some. GET IT, it's worth every penny. Follow the instructions, and make sure your not using a UV sterilizer at all for at least 2 months. It totally negates the effect of Stability.

 

[Caliban07]

Not that the poster is even subscribed anymore but water in Scotland is low in minerals like calcium and magnesium. Calcium carbonates will help to keep kh stable.

Your tap water ph is probably already low if not then your supplier is adding things to raise it. I have very soft tap water but the ph is over 8! Water companies for you. The point it is still low in mineral content.

I assume that you kh (carbonate hardness) it sounds as though your ph is 6.4 despite water changes so your fresh water isn't probably adding a buffer as kh protects ph from falling.

Even if kh is relatively high, an overstocked tank will cause ph to fall as the nitrification process will use 7.14ppm of kh to convert 1ppm ammonia to nitrATE. Not to mention that acids are being produced at the same time. If kh goes down and acids go up then ph will fall. When it gets to 6.5 the bacteria slow down at 6.0 they start to die. I feel that this is why your tank is taking so long to cycle. The good news is that ammonia at a ph of 6.5 is mostly non toxic. However a large water change adds buffers (kh) ph rises and the large amounts of ammonia are halved but become toxic. The fish won't last long in this instance.

All the studies I've read about ammonia inhibiting bacteria are talking about ppm's in the 100s. I don't think this applies to our small scales.

Nitrite toxicity is species dependent and some of the studies I've read especially the zebra danio can tolerate very high levels. Basically nitrite suffocates fish over time depending on the concentration. I would not have nitrites any higher than 1ppm.

Overstocking is a no no for lots of reasons, mainly disease. Over crowing causes stress and leaves fish susceptible to illness especially with incompatible fish. Then there's the mess. Unless you have plants the tank can get very dirty and require lots of gravel vacs. Extra filtration does nothing to reduce toxins. I've read that filters efficiency does not increase after 4 x the volume of the aquarium.

Bacteria grows everywhere. There is lots of cubic feet of surface area available to bacteria on one small sponge. There is plenty of bacteria to cope with whatever happens in our tanks EVENTUALLY. More sponges means more collection off TSS (total suspended solids) waste that doesn't pass through a 2 micron filter. People forget that filters do not remove waste. They collect it and require regular maintenance. Bacteria in the sponge get covered by dirt and cut off the oxygen making the filter less efficient.

The only chemical that you should really be putting in your tank is a dechlorinator maybe ferts if you have plants. But I've never used stability. Speaking of stability, there is nothing more that your fish, plants and bacteria are grateful for. Larger water changes than 50% in my opinion change the chemistry of the water they have been swimming in for a week and could be the reason why some people report that their fish become ill or die after a water change. Depends on the fish. I prefer to keep live plants and do 25% water changes but more frequent so fish can slowly adapt.

 

[Sk3lly]

Not that the poster is even subscribed anymore but water in Scotland is low in minerals like calcium and magnesium. Calcium carbonates will help to keep kh stable.

Your tap water ph is probably already low if not then your supplier is adding things to raise it. I have very soft tap water but the ph is over 8! Water companies for you. The point it is still low in mineral content.

I assume that you kh (carbonate hardness) it sounds as though your ph is 6.4 despite water changes so your fresh water isn't probably adding a buffer as kh protects ph from falling.

Even if kh is relatively high, an overstocked tank will cause ph to fall as the nitrification process will use 7.14ppm of kh to convert 1ppm ammonia to nitrATE. Not to mention that acids are being produced at the same time. If kh goes down and acids go up then ph will fall. When it gets to 6.5 the bacteria slow down at 6.0 they start to die. I feel that this is why your tank is taking so long to cycle. The good news is that ammonia at a ph of 6.5 is mostly non toxic. However a large water change adds buffers (kh) ph rises and the large amounts of ammonia are halved but become toxic. The fish won't last long in this instance.

All the studies I've read about ammonia inhibiting bacteria are talking about ppm's in the 100s. I don't think this applies to our small scales.

Nitrite toxicity is species dependent and some of the studies I've read especially the zebra danio can tolerate very high levels. Basically nitrite suffocates fish over time depending on the concentration. I would not have nitrites any higher than 1ppm.

Overstocking is a no no for lots of reasons, mainly disease. Over crowing causes stress and leaves fish susceptible to illness especially with incompatible fish. Then there's the mess. Unless you have plants the tank can get very dirty and require lots of gravel vacs. Extra filtration does nothing to reduce toxins. I've read that filters efficiency does not increase after 4 x the volume of the aquarium.

Bacteria grows everywhere. There is lots of cubic feet of surface area available to bacteria on one small sponge. There is plenty of bacteria to cope with whatever happens in our tanks EVENTUALLY. More sponges means more collection off TSS (total suspended solids) waste that doesn't pass through a 2 micron filter. People forget that filters do not remove waste. They collect it and require regular maintenance. Bacteria in the sponge get covered by dirt and cut off the oxygen making the filter less efficient.

The only chemical that you should really be putting in your tank is a dechlorinator maybe ferts if you have plants. But I've never used stability. Speaking of stability, there is nothing more that your fish, plants and bacteria are grateful for. Larger water changes than 50% in my opinion change the chemistry of the water they have been swimming in for a week and could be the reason why some people report that their fish become ill or die after a water change. Depends on the fish. I prefer to keep live plants and do 25% water changes but more frequent so fish can slowly adapt.

Great post. Thanks.

I wasn't aware that the BB actually lowers the kh value whilst converting ammonia

 

[Caliban07]

Great post. Thanks.

I wasn't aware that the BB actually lowers the kh value whilst converting ammonia

It sure does.

I'd also like to say that I shouldn't be saying you should do this and shouldn't do that. This post is based on research, opinion and experience. Telling people what they should and shouldn't do is one of my pet hates about this forum.

 

[squirrilah fish]

Great post. Thanks.

I wasn't aware that the BB actually lowers the kh value whilst converting ammonia

+1, thanks for taking the time.

 

[neonpedro]

I'm still here pal :d

 

[neonpedro]

So nature is slowly dealing with my overstocking issue. Either that or my algae eaters had a suicide pact last night as when I woke they were impersonating Romeo and Juliet. Completed another 50% change tonight. As much as I appreciate the input it's made me go a little cross eyed at how technical and scientific this is! I don't even know what BB is ? My 19 neons are fighting the good fight. 1 thing I want advice on. I'm assuming my filter is dirty but had left it this way to encourage bacteria growth but above poster suggested it could be stifling it from oxygen? Should I clean the foam but leave the carbon and bio medium? Or clean the lot out in a bucket of tank water?

 

[jglover]

BB = beneficial bacteria