My Ongoing Fancytail Tank Dilemma...Cycling, Seachem Stability, Etc.

[Osage_Winter]

I have a recently-acquired 60-gallon rectangular that's been up and running for maybe about a month and a half by now -- perhaps shorter. Filtration is provided by an Aqueon QuietFlow 55, which I was told was okay to use for aquariums up to 60 gallons, and I have two pieced-together Top Fin bubble wands for extra oxygen duties. I did not add any cycling boosters or anything to technically cycle the tank, just ran the Aqueon filter for about two weeks as the tank went into a cloudy state; eventually, the cloudyness seemed to clear and I did a water test. Everything came back normal according to the strips (I know they're not as reliable as the chemical kits, but...).

And so, we introduced two fancytail Oranda goldfish to the tank, medium sized, which seemed to flourish and exhibit signs of healthy activity. The cloudy water spiked again, and then cleared on its own, so we tested the water again and when it came back safe once more, we added a third black and gold fancytail, and he seems to be doing just fine as well. I still have all three fish, but here's the ongoing dilemma...

About a week or so ago, the tank became ridiculously cloudy again, so we ran more water tests and indeed some ammonia had spiked -- my wife immediately ran out and got some AmmoniaSafe from Tetra and Seachem's Prime, both of which I added to the tank according to instructions. As a side note, the water has been conditioned since it went in the tank from the beginning, and ever since I did a 25% or so water change -- so it's NOT straight tap water.

And so, with adding the Prime and AmmoniaSafe, I also did about a 20 or 25% water change, but then decided to give all the chemicals a break. The fish are STILL doing okay through all of this; these fancytails sure are tough! At any rate, just today, on advice from others on another site, I went out and got Seachem's Stability to start the cycling of the tank the "right" way, in addition to a second Aqueon filter (smaller than my QuietFlow 55) just to supplement the larger filter that's been running because I was told you need to overfilter goldfish tanks...

So, tonight I did the first dose of Stability, and I will follow the routine for the rest of the week (today was six capfuls for 60 gallons), but I'm wondering a few things...should I have bought the second filter to assist with the original larger one? Should I have bought the same sized filter as the secondary?

As for the Stability, is it okay that I began running it now, after weeks of having the fancytails in the tank? Is the correct way to use it just to follow the 7-day routine and then stop, using it only after that for water changes and new fish additions? Further, does anyone have any thoughts on the usage of "Purigen" by Seachem? I was told this is a product that "polishes" the water and makes it absolutely crystal-clear -- my local PetSmart didn't have it to buy today, but I would like to try it, as we really haven't had crystal-clear water since starting this tank weeks ago.

If anyone could shed some light here, I'd appreciate it!

 

[RaptorBro]

Bigger filter goldfish produce alot of waste and from what i learnt and heard its good to double the size of the filter. I would get a AC70 or bigger IMO.

 

[Osage_Winter]

Bigger filter goldfish produce alot of waste and from what i learnt and heard its good to double the size of the filter. I would get a AC70 or bigger IMO.

Well, I already had the Aqueon QuietFlow 55 set up and running, so I couldn't just stop the filtration that's been building from it, plus I'm not really certain what an "AC70" is; either way, you don't think that supplementing my 60-gallon-capable original main filter with a smaller version of the model is good enough as auxilary filtration?

 

[jsoong]

AC70 is short for AquaClear 70 ... It is a good HOB filter, but if you already have one in there, I would just keep it running. The filter manufacturers have a rather optomistic view of their filter's capacity. It is usually good to take the ratings with a grain of salt, and run an oversized filter for your tank.

For goldfish, because of the large bioload, it is advisable to run a big filter with 8-10x water change over. For your size tank, a canister will work better than a HOB. But your problem ATM isn't really due to the filter. 3 fantails in a 60 is not too much, and I would only worry about filter upgrade/ additional filters if you decided to add more fish or when the fish gets big.

Right now, your problem is an uncycled tank. Simply running the filters will not cycle a tank, so your cycle only got started when you added the fish. You can expect to see ammonia spikes, followed by nitrite spikes. <All of this is stressful to the fish.> It is normal to see cloudiness during the cycling process. I would not attempt to clear the tank with chemicals. They are cosmetic "cures" & really do not do anything to water quality.

The key to keeping fish healthy during cycling is to do enough water changes to keep NH3 & NO2 low. Orandas are some of the more sensitive breed to water quality, so you need to keep on top of the water quality. <They may not show problems right away, but can come down with something days or weeks down the road.> I would suggest doing as much pwc as needed to keep ammonia under 0.5 & NO2 under 0.25. So if you ammonia level measures 1, you would do a 50% pwc. Prime or another ammonia binder may be use as a stop gap while you are getting things under control. But remember that Prime's binding capacity only last 1-2 days, so you need to check water levels daily & re-dose as needed. Personally, I would rather remove the ammonia or nitrites from the tank with pwc's rather than rely on chemicals.

As for stability, there is not a lot of evidence that it will hasten the cycling process. You can certainly go ahead & try it, but I would keep a close eye on the levels until the tank is completely cycled.

 

[Osage_Winter]

Thanks, J.

AC70 is short for AquaClear 70 ... It is a good HOB filter, but if you already have one in there, I would just keep it running. The filter manufacturers have a rather optomistic view of their filter's capacity. It is usually good to take the ratings with a grain of salt, and run an oversized filter for your tank.

Okay; but here are some replies I have received from Aqueon direct regarding this:

The model 55 filter should be more than enough for a 60 gallon aquarium. It is very common for a newly set up aquarium to be cloudy for while. This typically will last up to a few weeks but will clear on it’s own.

And...

You should definitely not need to add another filter. I’ve seen that filter on tanks much larger than yours. The position you have the filter is perfectly acceptable. That is normal for the filter to be on one side of the aquarium or the other. I’m sure that is fairly normal. It doesn’t happen in every aquarium do it is fairly common. The likely cause is either high ammonia or nitrate or a bacteria bloom. With a new aquarium and goldfish the likely cause in this situation is high ammonia. Goldfish are a species of carp and produce a lot of waste. The best thing you can do in this case is cut back on the food some and perform about 25% or more water changes weekly. That will help if the problem is the ammonia or nitrite. If the problem is a bacteria bloom all you can do is wait for it to run its course. Start with lessening the amount of food and water changes. Also make sure you are vacuuming the gravel during the water changes. That should help the water clear much quicker.

And...

I’m positive it is normal to have a filter on only one side of the aquarium. Yes I was referring to the cloudy water. The water will definitely clear up at some point. The aquarium just may need to fully cycle first. Try reducing the amount of food being fed and increase the amount and frequency of water changes.

For goldfish, because of the large bioload, it is advisable to run a big filter with 8-10x water change over. For your size tank, a canister will work better than a HOB. But your problem ATM isn't really due to the filter. 3 fantails in a 60 is not too much, and I would only worry about filter upgrade/ additional filters if you decided to add more fish or when the fish gets big.

I have seen the canister-type filters on YouTube videos; I don't really think I am up to the level of the hobby which they require yet -- plus I already have the aforementioned Aqueon(s). That said, I had mentioned in my initial post that I ALREADY purchased the second Aqueon today, but it's a much smaller model which I have positioned on the other side of the tank just for supplemental filtration -- do you not think that was okay to do?

Right now, your problem is an uncycled tank. Simply running the filters will not cycle a tank, so your cycle only got started when you added the fish. You can expect to see ammonia spikes, followed by nitrite spikes. <All of this is stressful to the fish.> It is normal to see cloudiness during the cycling process. I would not attempt to clear the tank with chemicals. They are cosmetic "cures" & really do not do anything to water quality.

Okay; I haven't bought anything to clear the water per se, just Seachem's Stability today to try and kick start the cycle -- I was asking about their "Purigen" product because I've seen videos of people's tanks with these granules implemented in their filters, and the water is RIDICULOUSLY clear.

The key to keeping fish healthy during cycling is to do enough water changes to keep NH3 & NO2 low. Orandas are some of the more sensitive breed to water quality, so you need to keep on top of the water quality. <They may not show problems right away, but can come down with something days or weeks down the road.> I would suggest doing as much pwc as needed to keep ammonia under 0.5 & NO2 under 0.25. So if you ammonia level measures 1, you would do a 50% pwc. Prime or another ammonia binder may be use as a stop gap while you are getting things under control. But remember that Prime's binding capacity only last 1-2 days, so you need to check water levels daily & re-dose as needed. Personally, I would rather remove the ammonia or nitrites from the tank with pwc's rather than rely on chemicals.

As for stability, there is not a lot of evidence that it will hasten the cycling process. You can certainly go ahead & try it, but I would keep a close eye on the levels until the tank is completely cycled.

That's surprising that you feel that way about Stability; nearly every user comment I have read reports the exact opposite, quite passionately in fact. I bought it because I figured it was better to do something to get this tank cycle started than just running a "natural fish-in" cycle; should I not continue to use it? The instructions claim I have to use it for the next 7 days...

 

[taylorodw]

Welcome to AA.

When we ask about the filter, we are asking using our opinions, which can differ greatly from those of a company or manufacturer's. We feel this is a benefit because we are unbiased. Our comments aren't trying to sell anything to you, so we won't tell you anything but our opinions of how to best care for your fish.

That said, you can most likely succeed with the Quietflow 55, it has a bout 5x per hour turnover rate for your tank. If you bought another filter I would encourage you put it on, because more filtration basically means a clearer tank, especially once your cycle finishes.

Does Ammonia Safe detoxify, or lock/remove ammonia? Does it indicate on the bottle?

All in all I wish you good luck and once your water clears up you should post pictures of your gold fish!

 

[Osage_Winter]

Thank you very much, Taylor! I appreciate your reply!

Welcome to AA.

Indeed; thank you.

When we ask about the filter, we are asking using our opinions, which can differ greatly from those of a company or manufacturer's. We feel this is a benefit because we are unbiased. Our comments aren't trying to sell anything to you, so we won't tell you anything but our opinions of how to best care for your fish.

I understand this completely; I was just sharing what Aqueon told me so maybe folks could add their opinions regarding their opinions.

That said, you can most likely succeed with the Quietflow 55, it has a bout 5x per hour turnover rate for your tank. If you bought another filter I would encourage you put it on, because more filtration basically means a clearer tank, especially once your cycle finishes.

Thank you for addressing this directly -- I have indeed put the second Aqueon on and it's running, but I bought the QuietFlow 20, which is smaller, as I figured it was just a supplement filter for the main 55. Was this okay? Is this too much water turbulence?

Does Ammonia Safe detoxify, or lock/remove ammonia? Does it indicate on the bottle?

I believe all these parameters are covered by this Tetra product; I only used it once when there was a spike. Since then, I have eased off the chemical applications in the water...

All in all I wish you good luck and once your water clears up you should post pictures of your gold fish!

Thank you; I will do my best to share the pics!

Looking forward to hearing back from you -- notably regarding my decision to put the second filter on.

 

[taylorodw]

Sounds good, you are definitely on the right track by cutting chemicals.

The quietflow 20 puts you at a much more respectable 7x turnover rate per hour.

I arrived at this figure by checking out the quietflow 55 (320ish GPH, or approx 5x60 gallons, so 5x turnover) and adding the 20 (125 GPH or 2x turnover) to get 7x.

This will be adequate filtration under most circumstances.

Sometimes ammonia lock/removal chemicals can stall or halt your cycle. Am I correct in understanding the ammonia spike happened before you used it?

What are your ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels? Like jsoong said, that will determine water change schedule.

As far as Stability goes, I too have read some glowing reviews, I have also read some poor reviews. I've never used it but my personal opinion is that it's sort of a roulette without much payout. I've heard of people using Stability having their tank cycle 1 week ahead of my normal schedule, or even a week and a half. It may be worth it to try in your tank, especially if you already have it, because I haven't heard of it slowing anything down.

However I would ask for the help of somebody who used it with fish, because you still need to keep ammonia and nitrite below the levels jsoong posted. Those water changes may disrupt the workings of Stability. I really don't know, but those are my concerns on the product.

I would also like to note that jsoong is our most experienced active gold fish keeper (I believe).

Anyway, I hope that helps

 

[Osage_Winter]

Sounds good, you are definitely on the right track by cutting chemicals.

Thanks for the reassurance here.

The quietflow 20 puts you at a much more respectable 7x turnover rate per hour.

Okay; but are two filters "too much" for a 60-gallon? It seems like the plants (non-live) are blowing around a great deal now, and there's more "current" for the fish to swim through -- not overwhelmingly so, but the QuietFlow 20 seems to "pour" into the tank much differently than the 55, with a more aggressive direct spout into the water. Is this OK?

I arrived at this figure by checking out the quietflow 55 (320ish GPH, or approx 5x60 gallons, so 5x turnover) and adding the 20 (125 GPH or 2x turnover) to get 7x.

Wow -- more of a mathematician than I am, I will tell you that! But I think I follow you...thanks.

This will be adequate filtration under most circumstances.

But is it "good enough" for the three Orandas in my 60-gallon?

Sometimes ammonia lock/removal chemicals can stall or halt your cycle. Am I correct in understanding the ammonia spike happened before you used it?

Yes, of course.

What are your ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels? Like jsoong said, that will determine water change schedule.

I don't know the immediate readings; I will try and take them tomorrow at some point...

As far as Stability goes, I too have read some glowing reviews, I have also read some poor reviews. I've never used it but my personal opinion is that it's sort of a roulette without much payout. I've heard of people using Stability having their tank cycle 1 week ahead of my normal schedule, or even a week and a half. It may be worth it to try in your tank, especially if you already have it, because I haven't heard of it slowing anything down.

I was told by someone on another site that this is what I need to begin my fish-in cycle -- so SOMETHING at least makes the beneficial bacteria grow; do you diagree with this? Should I continue following the instructions for the next seven days?

However I would ask for the help of somebody who used it with fish, because you still need to keep ammonia and nitrite below the levels jsoong posted. Those water changes may disrupt the workings of Stability. I really don't know, but those are my concerns on the product.

Interesting, if a bit disheartening; at any rate, perhaps I will just remain still for the next few days and see what the Stability brings. As much as it pains me to say this -- because I have become connected to the Three Amigos in my tank as I call them -- I am prepared on some level to lose these "starter" fish because of the unstable conditions of the fairly new tank. I pray this doesn't happen, but I'm trying everything from a second filter to starting the Stability...

I would also like to note that jsoong is our most experienced active gold fish keeper (I believe).

Anyway, I hope that helps

Noted, and thank you!

 

[jsoong]

Taylor is giving you really good advice, so I don't have too much to add.

As for water flow & goldfish, your 2 filters won't be too much. For reference, I have almost 10x changeover in my tank, and I usually run a HOT Magnum at 150 gph in my 10 gal QT. Even poorer swimmers like Ranchus & Veiltails can handle that without problems. If you like, you can strategically place the filters so there is a bit of a quiet spot in the tank. Goldies keepers with canisters will usually point the output diagonally across the tank so there is a quiet spot in one corner. If the goldfish choose to, they can rest in the quiet area.

 

[Osage_Winter]

Taylor is giving you really good advice, so I don't have too much to add.

As for water flow & goldfish, your 2 filters won't be too much. For reference, I have almost 10x changeover in my tank, and I usually run a HOT Magnum at 150 gph in my 10 gal QT. Even poorer swimmers like Ranchus & Veiltails can handle that without problems. If you like, you can strategically place the filters so there is a bit of a quiet spot in the tank. Goldies keepers with canisters will usually point the output diagonally across the tank so there is a quiet spot in one corner. If the goldfish choose to, they can rest in the quiet area.

Thanks, J...

I understand completely what you're saying about the direction of the flow output from the filter, but because of my tank's massive matching wooden canopy, I don't think I can hang the smaller QuietFlow off the side of it...

 

[carpus]

Another reason for having multiple filters on goldfish is that if efficiency on one drops (and you don't notice it)--due to shifting of components, blockage, whatnot--you are spreading your filtration load over two units. Plus with goldies it seems like you cannot filter too much.

I have used Stability and other similar additives, and alone and together they have combined for rapid establishment of the proper bacterial populations. When I have used Stability alone, the tank was quickly producing nitrates and had minimal ammonia. I would be surprised if any of us had done controlled experiments on these products, but in light of my results I would say that it does seem to work.

 

[Osage_Winter]

Another reason for having multiple filters on goldfish is that if efficiency on one drops (and you don't notice it)--due to shifting of components, blockage, whatnot--you are spreading your filtration load over two units. Plus with goldies it seems like you cannot filter too much.

I have used Stability and other similar additives, and alone and together they have combined for rapid establishment of the proper bacterial populations. When I have used Stability alone, the tank was quickly producing nitrates and had minimal ammonia. I would be surprised if any of us had done controlled experiments on these products, but in light of my results I would say that it does seem to work.

Thanks again Carpus...

I understand that the goldies can definitely benefit from extra filtration, but is it okay that one of the filters is smaller than the other, as it's really for auxilary filtration? The flow designs of these two models -- even though they're from the same manufacturer -- are completely different. The 55 puts out a strong, wide current from the top of the water's edge, while the 20 spits a narrow waterfall-like current right down into the water...

Is this alright?

 

[jsoong]

No problem having non-matching filters .... People even run canister with HOB, or Power heads with sump, etc ... filters that have totally different modes of action & output. There is generally no problem having different types of currents in a tank. Only thing to watch for is not to place one filter's output directly in the path of the intake of the 2nd filter ... as this will make for inefficient filtering.

 

[Osage_Winter]

Thanks, as always, J...

Right now, I have an Ich problem with one of my fancytails, and the problems never seem to end....

 

[jsoong]

Ich is one of the common ailment fish come down with from the stress of cycling.

First thing to do is to make sure your water parameters are under controlled. What is your ammonia & nitrite levels? You need to lower that as much as possible with pwc's.

Next, I would suggest treating with salt. Salt will not harm your biofilter (and also protects against nitrite poisoning), and is as effective as other harsh chemicals. You want raise the salt levels to 0.3% over 48 hours, & keep it there for at least 1-2 weeks after all the ich spots are gone. This si more info:
Treating Ich with Salt | Illness and Treatment

 

[Osage_Winter]

Ich is one of the common ailment fish come down with from the stress of cycling.

Well, that at least makes me feel a little better, that the cause was from what's going on here...

First thing to do is to make sure your water parameters are under controlled. What is your ammonia & nitrite levels? You need to lower that as much as possible with pwc's.

I used the Jungle brand test strips, and as far as I can tell, there aren't any numerical "values" to read, just a color chart to compare when the squares turn different colors...according to the dips I made, everything but ammonia came back near the "safe" zones, or close. The ammonia seemed like it was in "stress" zone, so I put a capful of Seachem Prime in the water...

The tank is ridiculously cloudy now even with the second Aqueon filter I added...

Next, I would suggest treating with salt. Salt will not harm your biofilter (and also protects against nitrite poisoning), and is as effective as other harsh chemicals. You want raise the salt levels to 0.3% over 48 hours, & keep it there for at least 1-2 weeks after all the ich spots are gone. This si more info:
Treating Ich with Salt | Illness and Treatment

Thank you! I will read that when I get a chance, but can you give me a brief walkthough, please, of what I need to do here? We are talking AQUARIUM salt, correct? What about regular table salt? Will that work? And how do I dispense with the treatment?

 

[Osage_Winter]

Okay...read that link and oh boy...

I don't even know where I would start; the treatment parameters for using the salt seem really daunting. Is there an easier way to break it down?

 

[jsoong]

Ich is one of the easier to treat ailments....

Using salt is not that complicated ... what you want to use is pure salt - no additive, no iodine, etc ... so aquarium salt, kosher salt, pickling salt or plain sea salt will all work.

I would suggest doing a 50% pwc before starting the salt treatment. Your ammonia is already in the danger zone, it is going to get higher. You need to get a handle on it before starting any treatment. <Prime will help in the short term... however, to use it effectively you need to know your ammonia level with a liquid test kit .... There is a calculation in the fine print of the bottle to tell you how many ml to use for a certain level of ammonia ...>

Back to using salt:
You need to calculate how much salt you need for your tank. At 60 gal, you would need ~50 teaspoons or 17 tablespoons of salt to raise the salt by 0.1%. <To be more accurate, you would weigh the salt ... You need 240 g of salt to raise the level by 0.1%.>

You add the 50 tsp after the 50% pwc, then another 50 tsp 12 hrs later, and another 50 tsp 12 hrs after that. That would raise your salt level to 0.3% over 2 days. <And you have a total of 150 tsp of salt in the tank.>

Every time you do a pwc, you replace the amount of salt removed. If you take out 25% of your tank, you add back 25% of the 150 tsp of the salt ... (ie 38 tsp). You keep up the salt level until a week after the ich is gone. Then you do pwc as usual, but not add back any salt, this will gradually reduce your salt back to nothing over a few weeks.

Incidentally, that is a lot of salt needed for a big tank ... Some people would treat in a hospital tank or smaller setup to save on cost. <But salt is cheap ... if you get it from the grocery store!> But since you don't have a cycled tank, it is less stressful to manage the fish is big tank. <Less rapid rise in waste levels.>

There are chemical ways of treating ich. QuickCure is one of the better one. However, most of the ich meds will stain your tank's seams blue (permanently!). It is even more difficult to maintain a proper level of meds in your tank if you are doing frequent pwc's ... And you will need to do pwc's to maintain clean water or the fish won't get better ... And treating a big tank with meds will cost you $$. So all in all, salt is the way to go IMO.

 

[taylorodw]

This thread is full of information! I hope you are not overwhelmed.

Ich is really the "best case scenario" for a disease because it is easy to diagnose, and if treated in time (within a few days of visible symptoms) we have a near 100% cure rate!

As for your filters, I agree that mismatched is no problem - I run two mismatched filters on my main tank 7x will work. If you decide to upgrade your filtration at a later date, it will benefit you, but the 3 goldies should be fine with 7x tank turnover filtration. Remember that these are optimal ratings, taken most often with no media in the filter (so a direct flow through instead of a filter pad), and in all reality we don't reach those speeds after the filter sucks up some gunk.

Starting your cycle "right" with Seachem Stability is, IMO, just another slogan. With no chemical additives and pure ammonia, I cycled my tanks in as short as 21 days. A member here cycled in 14-16 days (I don't really remember) by dumping the entire bottle in, right from the start, the first treatment. To me, the extra wait was no problem especially as there is no guarantee of success, and it's impossible to 100% determine how much it helped, if at all, anyway. That is my personal opinion, I know another poster DragonFish cycles all of her tanks with Stability and likes the results. She has a bunch of great, healthy, successful tanks as well.

After reading the instructions to Stability, it doesn't say anything about water changes. Honestly, IMO that means perform water changes as you wish, and I always try to follow instructions carefully with any chemical. However, this is down to personal interpretations of instructions. It is up to you to decide if you should do water changes

You are getting good advice here. We may have to link to this thread later