Need guidance ...

[mooncrow]

Hi ... Well, I'm beginning week 4 with my 29 gallon tank and 3 Orandas. It's been an enormous "struggle." My first tank had a slow leak that I didn't notice until after one week because I was doing so many water changes. I had to go back to PetSmart and get new tank and start over as far as cycling. At the same time, female Oranda "laced" everything with lovely strings of eggs, which had to be removed so fish wouldn't overeat and a male Oranda got Ich. I had to do salt treatment, and Ich appears to have been gone now for 3 weeks. I'm getting temp down ... it's at 75 now and lowering salt to normal level. Reaching ammonia level zero took three weeks ... nitrites are still kind'a high, but I'm hopeful I'm on the way to a cycled tank soon. I'm testing water twice daily. Alakalinity and Ph are a bit low, but I haven't felt comfortable "messing" with them since eveything else has been such a "drama."

Now .... I need to know if there's anything I should be "adding" ... like vitamens ? I'm using StressZyme and StressCoat and salt in water changes; feeding Oranda floating pellets, goldfish flakes (but not often ... they float right to the bottom and turn black in time), goldfish sinking pellets, freezedried bloodworms; and peas without hulls as treats. In an attempt not to overfeed, I've been "hand feeding" piece by piece so food won't scatter and get uneaten.

We've been through a lot, but my Orandas are sweet and coming out of water, trying to take food from my fingers. Thanks for any advise ...

 

[Fishyfanatic]

From what I have read and from my own experiences, you may be over medicating your fish. The addition of salt only needs to be used if you have injured fish or if they specifically require it. After reading over several webpages I have not found that Goldfish require the salt treatment. In regards to adding vitamins, limit protein to 30% of the diet. A Goldfish flake or pellet food will provide these fish with the proper nutrition. They will thrive in pH 6.5 - 7.5 and KH 4-20. As long as you stay within these lines as much as possible, you should be fine. Sometimes subjecting fish to multiple medications can actually hurt your fish instead of helping.

This is just from my own experiences.

 

[jsoong]

Mooncrow, it sounds like you are doing a bang up job of looking after the goldies!

I personally would not add anything in terms of supplements. As long as you are feeding high quality & varied food, <and it sounds like you do>, you shouldn't need any supplement.

Where are you in the cycle? ie. NO2 level. The 2nd phase tend to take longer than the first phase & the NO2 spike can last for weeks. In addition to water changes, you migh consider keeping salt at 1.0005 ..... That's about 1/6 of the level you used to treat ich .... that low level of salt will protect from NO2 posioning.

As far a low KH goes, anythign over 4-6 should be plenty to keep pH stable, & I would not mess with it. If it is really low, then you can consider adding a source of carbonate (crushed coral, limestone, bicarbonates, etc) to keep pH stable.

 

[mooncrow]

Thanks jsoong ... I have been trying very hard to keep my goldies happy and healthy. I suppose I'm only about a week into the higher nitrite cycle, though it seems to be holding at around .5 for the last couple of days. I have been lowering the salt when I do water changes, which I was doing almost daily until the ammonia went to zero. They seem happy and active. pH is stable ... just around 6.2. Thanks again for your advice.

 

[jsoong]

Watch that NO2, it is likely to go up before going down!

pH of 6.2 is rather low. Is that the pH of your tap water? I suspect that your water has other "things" in addition to the usual CO2/HCO3/CO3 buffer system. It would be helpful to know what the alkalinity (KH) is.

With all your constant water changes during cycling, the pH should remain fairly close to your tap. Once you are done cycling (and the daily water changes), however, you may not have enough buffers to keep pH stable. If the KH is indeed low, it would be advisible to raise the KH (& the pH) with crushed coral/oyster shells/ limestone. Most people just throw a cupful into the filter or substrate & replenish from time to time. The pH & KH tend to go up fairly slowly (giving the fish time to adjust), and pH equlibrates in the 7's.

 

[mooncrow]

I've been testing ammonia & nitrites with test kits ... the alakalinity and pH with test strips. Strip says "low" on alakalinity and to "buffer" ... pH is around 6.2 or whatever the lowest reading on strip was. Tap water is from community water supply ... I guess I need to test it right out the tap to see what the reading is. I've added StressZyme and StressCoat. The Nitrite spiked really high when the ammonia finally bottomed out, but water changes seem to keep it around 1.0+ ... which is probably still too high. Thanks for the info ...

 

[jsoong]

I would hesitate in doctoring the water based on strip tests. If the pH is reading at the lowest colour, you can be anywhere from 6.2 on down. I am not sure what a stripe test alkalinity is measuring. A drip KH/alkalinity test would add acid until you get a pH crash (& colour change). That is a pretty good indication of how much acid the water can buffer.

With very acidic water, you are working with a non-carbonate buffering system. <pH should be close to 7 if there is no carbonates in the water, anything less than 7, & there must be another buffer present.> I am not sure if a strip test can detect non-carbonate buffers. So I would be leary of following its advice of "add buffer".

Although goldies do prefer pH in the 7's, a stable pH is much more important. I would not advice a new owner to doctor the water <causes pH swings if done badly, etc.> unless there really is inadaquate buffering capacity. I would do a low range pH test (get the true pH) & KH test with both your tap & tank water before proceeding.

OTOH, using crushed coral is pretty foolproof <as long as you use enough to pretty much saturate the system so there is no pH swing once equlilbrum is reached>, so that is one thing you can consider. I would stay away from the various pH adjusting/buffering powders on the market. They either don't work or are tricky to get right.

PS - Most people here thinks that StressZyme, Cycle, etc that claims to add the bacteria for cycling are waste of money. <Only thing that works is bio-spira - you add that once, before the fish.>. Stress-coat is OK as water conditioner, but the claim that the "slime coat" produced actually helps is debated. I personally use only conditioner to remove chlorine/chloramine & nothing else when treating the water.