Joe_D
Aquarium Advice Freak
OK but what is meant by a "high" level?
Nitrate frustration
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Colin_T
Aquarium Advice Addict
In my opinion, anything above 40ppm is high but in my experience, I have seen nitrate levels in excess of 100ppm.
Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
When in doubt, use the old method" If it's high enough to alter your Ph, it's too high. " If you look at my bio, you'll see what qualifies me.
Joe_D
Aquarium Advice Freak
My nitrate might be considered high by some and my Ph is holding steady at about 7.
Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
My nitrate might be considered high by some and my Ph is holding steady at about 7.
Well, the water is the best guide IMO.
But if you start to see Ph fall and the nitrates are where you're at or higher, time to do water changes and possibly add some nitrate consuming products to your tank or filter. Joe_D
Aquarium Advice Freak
I do perform weekly water changes... two gal in my 10 gal tank.. Some times even twice a week
Colin_T
Aquarium Advice Addict
You do water changes for a number of reasons.
1) to reduce nutrients like ammonia, nitrite & nitrate.
2) to dilute disease organisms in the water.
3) to keep the pH, KH and GH stable.
4) to dilute nitric acid produced by fish food and waste breaking down.
5) to dilute stress chemicals (pheromones/ allomones) released by the fish.
6) to dilute un-used plant fertiliser so you don't overdose the fish when you add more.
7) to remove fish waste and other rotting organic matter.
Fish live in a soup of microscopic organisms including bacteria, fungus, viruses, protozoans, worms, flukes and various other things that make your skin crawl. Doing a big water change and gravel cleaning the substrate on a regular basis will dilute these organisms and reduce their numbers in the water, thus making it a safer and healthier environment for the fish.
Bigger water changes are generally better than small water changes.
If you do a 25% water change each week you leave behind 75% of the bad stuff in the water.
If you do a 50% water change each week you leave behind 50% of the bad stuff in the water.
If you do a 75% water change each week you leave behind 25% of the bad stuff in the water.
Fish live in their own waste. Their tank and filter is full of fish poop. The water they breath is filtered through fish poop. Cleaning filters, gravel and doing big regular water changes, removes a lot of this poop and harmful micro-organisms, and makes the environment cleaner and healthier for the fish.
Joe_D
Aquarium Advice Freak
I hope the last post was not aimed at me.
I am not some sort of an amateur aquarium hobbyist.
I am not some sort of an amateur aquarium hobbyist.
Joe_D
Aquarium Advice Freak
Yeah and 100% would be even better LOL
Colin_T
Aquarium Advice Addict
50-75% is fine. If your nitrates stay low with a 50% water change each week, stay with that. If the nitrates go high during the week, the do a 75%.
Don't do 100% unless it's an emergency.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.
Don't do 100% unless it's an emergency.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.
Joe_D
Aquarium Advice Freak
For (hopefully) the last time, there are different opinions about how high is too high.
Also for the last time, I am not a novice. I got my first tank over over 40 years ago.
Also for the last time, I am not a novice. I got my first tank over over 40 years ago.
Caliban07
Aquarium Advice Addict
There aren’t enough studies to show what is a harmful nitrate level for the type of fish we keep. I’ve seen one or two on perhaps Guppies and Danio’s if I recall but the vast majority are on catfish and salmonoids and the nitrate levels are in the hundreds of ppms before the levels begin to kill off 50% of the tested species.
So what can we do with this information? If we know nitrates can kill our fish then it makes sense to keep them as low as possible since it’s fairly easy to control.
The most troubling aspect of high nitrate levels is the fact that there is probably a high ammonia loading. Often nitrates are the ‘smoking gun’ left behind a sudden tank wipe out and the true culprit ammonia, has already cycled out by the time you test and nitrates get the blame.
The nitrogen cycle consumes alkalinity which in turn depresses the pH so high nitrates COULD indicate a reduction in pH as mentioned. But what does a low pH mean? Again, there are not many studies to show what happens to fish when the pH drops below a certain level.
Where I differ from most keepers is the fact I very very rarely replace water. I top up with either rain or RO water and small changes use the same water. I’ve been doing this for years and I know people who have done this their whole fish keeping life.
You only need to look at the Ocean Aquarium Store in San Francisco which hasn’t performed water changes since the mid 90s. He sells and breeds a whole host of fish in those tanks and his store is famous. So I’ve practiced and seen enough to know that water changes do not define an aquarium. I cannot stress this enough.
Having said that my nitrates are always zero because I have tons of plants. Two very different methods of keeping nitrates low yet I will agree, nobody really knows what level of nitrates are harmful to any given species. If you have high nitrates, there are many other factors going on in the tank that could lead to a reduction in fish health and shorten their lives. TDS will be higher, organic wastes will be higher, oxygen will be lower and the risk of disease will be higher.
So what can we do with this information? If we know nitrates can kill our fish then it makes sense to keep them as low as possible since it’s fairly easy to control.
The most troubling aspect of high nitrate levels is the fact that there is probably a high ammonia loading. Often nitrates are the ‘smoking gun’ left behind a sudden tank wipe out and the true culprit ammonia, has already cycled out by the time you test and nitrates get the blame.
The nitrogen cycle consumes alkalinity which in turn depresses the pH so high nitrates COULD indicate a reduction in pH as mentioned. But what does a low pH mean? Again, there are not many studies to show what happens to fish when the pH drops below a certain level.
Where I differ from most keepers is the fact I very very rarely replace water. I top up with either rain or RO water and small changes use the same water. I’ve been doing this for years and I know people who have done this their whole fish keeping life.
You only need to look at the Ocean Aquarium Store in San Francisco which hasn’t performed water changes since the mid 90s. He sells and breeds a whole host of fish in those tanks and his store is famous. So I’ve practiced and seen enough to know that water changes do not define an aquarium. I cannot stress this enough.
Having said that my nitrates are always zero because I have tons of plants. Two very different methods of keeping nitrates low yet I will agree, nobody really knows what level of nitrates are harmful to any given species. If you have high nitrates, there are many other factors going on in the tank that could lead to a reduction in fish health and shorten their lives. TDS will be higher, organic wastes will be higher, oxygen will be lower and the risk of disease will be higher.
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Wow! Incredible informative there, Caliban07. So incredible I called San Francisco, a town I know well (Go Niners) and had a long conversation with Justin the Ocean Aquarium owner. Very nice man and said if I come to SF, he will explain everything to me in greater detail. He speaks fast with a thick Chinese accent & I missed much. He was super friendly. I actually get out to SF occasionally to visit my mom & sisters.But yes, he does not do water changes. He said very thick fine sand is important. I asked what he bred & he said he’s 68 and not much anymore. He uses plants, but I couldn’t get a feel as to how essential they are.
He said the fish hobby is dying out in part because people are killing their fish with too many water changes. Geez, I though my weekly 50% water changes were my key to success. My fish do well and I have no immediate, if ever, plans to do as he does. I couldn’t really understand his nitrate levels talk, given the accent.
I see he has or had a blog which I’ll check out.
This is all very exciting & fascinating info, so glad you posted!
This is from his website.
https://www.google.com/maps/contrib...-123.2473226,6z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m3!8m2!3m1!1e1
Not sure if link will open. Justin has a nice website with many photos
https://www.google.com/maps/contrib...-123.2473226,6z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m3!8m2!3m1!1e1
Not sure if link will open. Justin has a nice website with many photos
Caliban07
Aquarium Advice Addict
Hi Jacky
You’re welcome. It’s nice to see things from other perspectives. It’s good to have an open mind and understand that just because something works doesn’t mean it is the only way. As I said, water changes do not define the health of an aquarium. I know this because I’ve been successful BOTH ways.
You see, those that advocate for water changes 9/10 are just parroting and regurgitating information they have heard throughout their journey but most have NEVER tried to run a system without them. Why would they? It works right? But seriously, unless you have tested other methods yourself then you mustn’t talk about them.
It isn’t just water changes though. The misinformation in this hobby runs very deep. Simple things that get regurgitated. You shouldn’t plant Anubias rhizomes under the substrate because they rot and die. Well what was the first thing I did? Planted my Anubias rhizomes deep in my sand substrate. Did they rot and die? Did they hell! Garbage! Some things I thought WAS jargon I’ve tested and have been proven wrong. My advice is to test things yourself. Use your eyes and observe. That’s how aquariums came to be, a chance to study nature in the home.
People say there is nothing natural about an aquarium. That is so patently false it’s unreal. The processes that go on in those little glass boxes are very natural. The earth is built on natural cycles. Do people think we get fresh water from space? It goes round and around the earth dissolving the geology for minerals and everything is taken up and recycled.
Look, it’s irresponsible to tell new fish keepers not to change water. In fact, a new aquarium is probably the most hostile in terms of water chemistry and the fish are certainly at the most greatest risk. When they stabilise then you can experiment. There are certain things you need to understand before you try to go without water changes. They absolutely have to be in balance. New aquariums are extremely unbalanced. Squeezing an aged sponge in to a new aquarium doesn’t make it balanced. The nitrogen cycle is just the beginning.
Ocean aquarium had fish that were on 7th generation.
The tank below has had half a dozen water changes in 25 years.
I use air driven equipment. Sponge filters and airstones. There was never anything wrong with the undergravel filter. They didn’t generate the trade money that was their biggest flaw.
You’re welcome. It’s nice to see things from other perspectives. It’s good to have an open mind and understand that just because something works doesn’t mean it is the only way. As I said, water changes do not define the health of an aquarium. I know this because I’ve been successful BOTH ways.
You see, those that advocate for water changes 9/10 are just parroting and regurgitating information they have heard throughout their journey but most have NEVER tried to run a system without them. Why would they? It works right? But seriously, unless you have tested other methods yourself then you mustn’t talk about them.
It isn’t just water changes though. The misinformation in this hobby runs very deep. Simple things that get regurgitated. You shouldn’t plant Anubias rhizomes under the substrate because they rot and die. Well what was the first thing I did? Planted my Anubias rhizomes deep in my sand substrate. Did they rot and die? Did they hell! Garbage! Some things I thought WAS jargon I’ve tested and have been proven wrong. My advice is to test things yourself. Use your eyes and observe. That’s how aquariums came to be, a chance to study nature in the home.
People say there is nothing natural about an aquarium. That is so patently false it’s unreal. The processes that go on in those little glass boxes are very natural. The earth is built on natural cycles. Do people think we get fresh water from space? It goes round and around the earth dissolving the geology for minerals and everything is taken up and recycled.
Look, it’s irresponsible to tell new fish keepers not to change water. In fact, a new aquarium is probably the most hostile in terms of water chemistry and the fish are certainly at the most greatest risk. When they stabilise then you can experiment. There are certain things you need to understand before you try to go without water changes. They absolutely have to be in balance. New aquariums are extremely unbalanced. Squeezing an aged sponge in to a new aquarium doesn’t make it balanced. The nitrogen cycle is just the beginning.
Ocean aquarium had fish that were on 7th generation.
The tank below has had half a dozen water changes in 25 years.
I use air driven equipment. Sponge filters and airstones. There was never anything wrong with the undergravel filter. They didn’t generate the trade money that was their biggest flaw.
Caliban07
Aquarium Advice Addict
Also Justin has a few videos on YouTube that will give you an insight into his practices.
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