pH question..... (my 1st post!)

[shoveltrash]

hi all - I've been a member here for a while, never posted, but been reading voraciously!
(hope this post is in the right place?)

question: the pH from my tap is approx. 7.4. pH in my established 40g tank is 8.0+. why the big difference??? ammonia 0, nitrates 0, nitrites 0.

my water source is well water, with a softening system (water without it is HARD).

until now the tank has had 4 young Angels, and has 4 guppies (they actually are great tank mates, believe it or not). they've done great with this water. but now I've added 2 Discus and I'm obsessing over the water quality! 'am thinking of just doing water changes, but worry about pH swings

thanks in advance for any/all replies!

 

[shoveltrash]

ok, REALLY obsessing, LOL!
re-checked water from tap, got 7-7.2. rechecked tank, got same 8-8.2. did a 20% PWC, and now tank tests 7.5.
?????
why would the pH go UP all on it's own?
could be related to KH or DH? (neither of which I have any understanding of, nor can I test for them)

at least all the fish seems happy and the Discus are eating & look good.

 

[jlk]

I am surprised you have zero nitrates in an established tank. There should be some unless you are doing 100% wcs daily (or its heavily planted). How often & how much do you change with pwcs? I wouldnt be too concerned with your ph as long as it stays stable. Big ph swings (up or down) can have drastic consequences for your fish. Because its softened water, its possible enough of the water buffers are being removed to allow the ph to rise. Im not an expert in the area of of softened water, so ill defer to the experts on how to address this best!

 

[LyndaB]

What you have in your tank (other than water) affects your pH reading, too. I have found recently that play sand (versus pool filter sand) ups pH. Also, empty snail shells if left in the tank can raise the pH. There are many factors. It's not just the water.

 

[shoveltrash]

the tank is fairly well planted. I hadn't test in quite some time, and was very surprised at the "0" results across the board. using an API test kit btw. just tested nitrates again - got 5ppm. I'm assuming there has to be SOME nitrates! so I'm relieved on that count.

thanks LyndaB! so.....I have aquarium gravel 1/2" on the bottom. several types of live plants, one plastic plant, two large plastic made-for-aquarium decorative pieces, and that's it.
???
thanks to you both for replying!!!!

 

[eco23]

Take a glass of tap water, throw an air stone in it (if you've got one) and leave it sitting out overnight. Test after it gasses out and see where the pH is. That will show your actual pH and will also isolate whether it's the water or something in the tank changing the pH.

It's a bit complicated, but residential water softeners aren't necessarily a good idea to use. In reality they don't "soften" the water, they replace the forms of minerals. They can also cause some crazy things with pH (normally dropping it though).

Normally a pH over 8 isn't a big deal...but with Discus I'd be a bit hesitant and the idea of using RO cut with your unsoftened tap water may be a good idea.

You're also right that the ammonia out of the tap isn't a big deal. A healthy bio-filter will consume it within hours, and if you're using a water conditioner like Prime, the ammo is non-toxic during that time anyway.

Ammonia does become more toxic at high pH levels...so I'd be certain you're using a conditioner that neutralizes ammonia / chloramines like Prime or Amquel.

 

[Wy Renegade]

Where did you get your aquarium gravel? Some gravels (generally the cheaper ones) are not plastic coated, and over time can erode having an impact on pH. For your pH to be increasing, there must be something in your tank causing it to rise, it will not rise on its own or as a result of waste production.

 

[jlk]

Ok-some nitrates is better result! Nothing that you listed in your tank should be having an effect on your ph. You can try more frequent pwcs to try & lower your ph closer to that of your tap. But do it gradually so its not a shock for your fish. I still think the softened water may have something to do with the higher ph (lack of buffers) but im not sure how to address this and i dont know this for fact because i have no experience with softened water. Im sure someone who knows will address this!

 

[Wy Renegade]

Water softeners use inorganic salts to bind magnesium and calcium ions in the water, hence softening the water. While this would have some minor effect on the buffering capability, I would tend to think again that it should tend to cause to lower, not raise. However, I'm certainly no expert, so could be wrong on that one.

 

[shoveltrash]

lots of things to think about here.
WyR is right about the water softening - but let me tell you, without the softening treatment of my well water, showerheads clog up! in a very short time, mineral deposits form on everything. I was advised that to preserve my appliances (washer, hot water heather, etc), I should soften the water.
<sigh> still, I'd like to know more about the affects on my water, if it might cause pH instability. where's a chemist when you need one?

I like the idea of letting water sit overnight with an air stone, just to see. I just have to get one I suppose.....

Where did you get your aquarium gravel? Some gravels (generally the cheaper ones) are not plastic coated, and over time can erode having an impact on pH.

local generic pet store.....so it may be that the gravel we purchased long ago is affecting the pH. however I remember when we first set up the tank the pH was high then too, but I didn't worry about as much.

my tank is 2 1/2 feet tall, 20 inches wide. my arm is barely long enough to reach bottom . so the thought of removing/replacing the gravel is overwhelming!!!!

You're also right that the ammonia out of the tap isn't a big deal.

there isn't any ammonia at all (?).

 

[eco23]

I think I got your thread mixed up with the ammonia out of the tap water statement. It still applies for future reference though, lol

As WY said, softeners strip what's considered the hardness...but it actually INCREASES the total dissolved solids (TDS) level (has to do with ion exchange and all sorts of fancy stuff). So fish that like soft water won't benefit from it, and the sodium content added can debatably cause issues for certain species, though I've never had problems and have been using the water for 8 years. It just requires a bit of a different fishkeeping technique, but I wouldn't recommend others use it.

It will absolutely screw with the pH. I don't usually mention it because I don't like having to explain the science all the time, but I also have a water conditioning system on my house (I run the company that sells them). The bypass is under the house, and since I don't like spiders...eco doesn't go under there to shut it off during pwc's, lol. I run a small bag of crushed coral to buffer the water in my tanks. Without it...the pH plummets dramatically within a few days which can be trouble for your fish.

Try the tap water sitting out overnight idea and let us know what you come up with.

 

[shoveltrash]

I run a small bag of crushed coral to buffer the water in my tanks. Without it...the pH plummets dramatically within a few days which can be trouble for your fish.

but this is where we differ - my pH doesn't decrease, it increaseses.

I've never had problems and have been using the water for 8 years. It just requires a bit of a different fishkeeping technique

that's actually reassuring.
and LOL I don't blame you for not mentioning it! there is so much more to the *science* behind all this than I ever dreamed!

so I'll set the water out overnight. I don't have an air stone though......not sure if this matters?

 

[eco23]

To put it simply since I'm sure you still have some questions...

When you hear that Discus like "soft, acidic water", your home water softener is NOT providing that for them. It is actually increasing the solids which are dissolved in your water...not reducing them. Removing the calcium / magnesium is great for dishwashers, washing machines, showers, etc... but it's not truly providing the type of "soft water" for your fish that you may believe.

Now, I've never kept Discus, so I can't testify to how hard of water they can adapt to...but they are notoriously a very delicate species. I would start researching what is considered their top acceptable range for pH / hardness / alkalinity, etc... If you really wanted to provide them "ideal" conditions, using a reverse osmosis system cut with tap water (preferably before the softener) to achieve your desired range is the best bet...though it's a bit complicated and expensive.

 

[eco23]

but this is where we differ - my pH doesn't decrease, it increaseses.

The pH level is a bit more complicated than it first appears. It's not just about hardness and alkalinity....but has to do with the level of gasses in your water (another complex issue). I'd start with aerating your tap water overnight, test it, and we can get a better idea of what's happening from there.

 

[shoveltrash]

*head spins*
oy, now I feel on the verge of tears............

 

[mfdrookie516]

4 young Angels, and has 4 guppies (they actually are great tank mates, believe it or not). they've done great with this water. but now I've added 2 Discus

I would be more concerned about this than the pH. That's a disaster waiting to happen. 6 cichlids (3 pairs?) in a 40 gallon tank is going to cause lots of problems, especially if they pair up and breed.

 

[shoveltrash]

thanks for your input.

 

[shoveltrash]

mfdrookie516 - it's tough when one makes judgements with limited information, and may very well put off new members to this forum. for example, how could you know that I have backup tanks and have played with moving fish after they pair up, etc? when one makes an assumption that the poster is ignorant, or worse an irresponsible fish-owner/caretaker, it is patently unfair.
sorry, but I tend to be brutally honest.

 

[BillD]

I was about to make basically the same comment as mfdrookie, and was surprised no one else had already. Regardless, even if you have other tanks to move them to, that tank is too small to raise those discus up to the size where they will pair off, while having the angels in the tank. As well the water needs to be mid 80s for the discus, and they do better in larger groups than 2.
As well, the dimensions of that tank aren't really helping your situation.

 

[shoveltrash]

thank you for taking the time to post BillD
altho this strays o/t,

that tank is too small to raise those discus up to the size where they will pair off, while having the angels in the tank

is it necessary to have Discus pair off? I'm not interested in breeding....but is there some other advantage, health-wise or otherwise, to 'pairing off?'

I've spent a lot of time on SD, and judging by what I've read temps around 82 are ok for Discus, likewise for Angels.

I realize it's not the perfect setup, but I am honestly trying to do well with what I have. I'm confident that I can prevent "disaster waiting to happen," even if it is not ideal in regards to numbers, tank size, etc.

I guess the wording of the other post seemed extreme to me, sorry.

again, thank you to those who have replied here! I did a 50% WC today, and added a large piece of driftwood......and (smacks head ) completely forgot to set up the 'overnight test' water set up for monitoring pH change out-of-tank. <writing note to self, DON'T forget tonight!>